9:15 a.m.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
I just started using drools and this is my first time implementing a
rules engine. Everything has been pretty smooth but I have some
quirks that I am not sure I can live with.
1) for some reason, if I execute the Knowlege session against an
object, the knowlege session never returns. The only way I can get
the ksession to return is to make IF (obj == null) part of the LHS and
make modify($input){setObj("complete")} part of the RHS
This seems like a deficiency since I have users writing their own
rules, I can see them forgetting this requirement. IS their a way to
get the ksession to firerules only once? If so what does that look like?
2) It seems that any code I want can be executed in the RHS. I could
literally execute something like the following in the RHS.
byte[] b= new byte[10000000000000]; // Really big memory waste
I also could just start a bunch of threads.
The point is that I am intending to let the users write their own
rules but I can't do that if there are no restrictions on how/what can
be done inside the rules. Any suggestions? Are there sandboxes or
filters I can activate to restrict the RHS?
- --
Cheers,
Matt Young
solid(a)youngdev.net
http://youngdev.net
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9:59 a.m.
On 18 September 2010 16:15, Matt Young <solid(a)youngdev.net> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
I just started using drools and this is my first time implementing a
rules engine. Everything has been pretty smooth but I have some
quirks that I am not sure I can live with.
1) for some reason, if I execute the Knowlege session against an
object, the knowlege session never returns.
I don't understand the term "execute...against an object". Do you mean
that you have just one fact inserted befor you call fireAllRules()?
But anyway, this call not returning is almost certainly due to a loop
in your rules, or have you made sure that they don't?
The only way I can get
the ksession to return is to make IF (obj == null) part of the LHS and
make modify($input){setObj("complete")} part of the RHS
This seems like a deficiency since I have users writing their own
rules, I can see them forgetting this requirement.
Writing rules is programming, no holds barred :-)
Look into Domain Specific Languages (DSL) as a cushion for the unwary.
IS their a way to
get the ksession to firerules only once? If so what does that look like?
kSession.fireUntilHalt( 1 );
2) It seems that any code I want can be executed in the RHS. I
could
literally execute something like the following in the RHS.
byte[] b= new byte[10000000000000]; // Really big memory waste
I also could just start a bunch of threads.
The point is that I am intending to let the users write their own
rules but I can't do that if there are no restrictions on how/what can
be done inside the rules. Any suggestions? Are there sandboxes or
filters I can activate to restrict the RHS?
Again: DSL.
Also, Rule Templates might be the starting point; it'd depend on what
the may be allowed to do.
And what about good old-fashioned training?!
-W
- --
Cheers,
Matt Young
solid(a)youngdev.net
http://youngdev.net
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10:19 a.m.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
maybe now would be a good time for some code. Here is how I am
executing the rules against the object:
KnowledgeBase kbase = KnowledgeBaseFactory.newKnowledgeBase();
KnowledgeBuilder kbuilder =
KnowledgeBuilderFactory.newKnowledgeBuilder();
kbuilder.add(ResourceFactory.newByteArrayResource(ruledata),ResourceType.DRL
);
if ( kbuilder.hasErrors() ) {
System.err.println( kbuilder.getErrors().toString() );
}
kbase.addKnowledgePackages(kbuilder.getKnowledgePackages());
StatelessKnowledgeSession ksession =
kbase.newStatelessKnowledgeSession();
ksession.execute(document);
Here is the rule:
package sample1
import sample1.bean.EventRulesDocument;
import sample1.bean.Transaction;
import java.util.Date;
rule "Standard processing rule"
when
$doc : EventRulesDocument(
ruleRun == false && # <<< Wolfgang
event != null && event.eventType.eventCode == "testevent" )
then
Transaction t = new Transaction();
t.setEvent($doc.getEvent());
t.setCategory($doc.getEvent().getEventType().getEventCode());
t.setTransactionAmount($doc.getEvent().getEventAmount());
t.setCreateTs(new Date());
t.setUsername($doc.getEvent().getCreateUsername());
modify( $doc ) {setRuleRun(true)}; # Wolfgang <<<<<<
modify( $doc ) {addSaveTransaction(t)} ;
end
If I take out the 2 lines marked "Wolfgang", the ksession never
returns from the execute() method.
Additionally If any code in the world can be executed in the RHS, then
why shouldn't I just use groovy as my rule language? At least then, I
can write math like such:
def num1=95;
def num2=90;
def num3=num2/num1;
and all of the math is done with big decimal objects. IF there is no
restriction on what can be done in the RHS what is the advantage to
using a rules engine over a general purpose scripting language? The
whole purpose for me choosing drools over Groovy eval() was that I
didn't want to give my users the ability to spawn threads, allocate
massive amounts of memory etc.
On 09/18/2010 10:59 AM, Wolfgang Laun wrote:
On 18 September 2010 16:15, Matt Young <solid(a)youngdev.net
<mailto:solid@youngdev.net>> wrote:
I just started using drools and this is my first time implementing
a rules engine. Everything has been pretty smooth but I have
some quirks that I am not sure I can live with. 1) for some reason,
if I execute the Knowlege session against an object, the knowlege
session never returns.
> I don't understand the term "execute...against an object". Do you
> mean that you have just one fact inserted befor you call
> fireAllRules()?
> But anyway, this call not returning is almost certainly due to a
> loop in your rules, or have you made sure that they don't?
The only way I can get the ksession to return is to make IF (obj ==
null) part of the LHS and make modify($input){setObj("complete")}
part of the RHS This seems like a deficiency since I have users
writing their own rules, I can see them forgetting this
requirement.
> Writing rules is programming, no holds barred :-)
> Look into Domain Specific Languages (DSL) as a cushion for the
> unwary.
IS their a way to get the ksession to firerules only once? If so
what does that look like?
> kSession.fireUntilHalt( 1 );
2) It seems that any code I want can be executed in the RHS. I
could literally execute something like the following in the RHS.
byte[] b= new byte[10000000000000]; // Really big memory waste
I also could just start a bunch of threads.
The point is that I am intending to let the users write their own
rules but I can't do that if there are no restrictions on how/what
can be done inside the rules. Any suggestions? Are there
sandboxes or filters I can activate to restrict the RHS?
> Again: DSL.
> Also, Rule Templates might be the starting point; it'd depend on
> what the may be allowed to do.
> And what about good old-fashioned training?!
> -W
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rules-users mailing list
rules-users(a)lists.jboss.org <mailto:rules-users@lists.jboss.org>
https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/rules-users
_______________________________________________ rules-users mailing
list rules-users(a)lists.jboss.org
https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/rules-users
- --
Cheers,
Matt Young
solid(a)youngdev.net
http://youngdev.net
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12:24 p.m.
On 18 September 2010 17:19, Matt Young <solid(a)youngdev.net> wrote:
ksession.execute(document);
I suppose this inserts a single EventRulesDocument object.
Here is the rule:
package sample1
import sample1.bean.EventRulesDocument;
import sample1.bean.Transaction;
import java.util.Date;
rule "Standard processing rule"
when
$doc : EventRulesDocument(
ruleRun == false && # <<< Wolfgang
event != null && event.eventType.eventCode == "testevent" )
then
Transaction t = new Transaction();
t.setEvent($doc.getEvent());
t.setCategory($doc.getEvent().getEventType().getEventCode());
t.setTransactionAmount($doc.getEvent().getEventAmount());
t.setCreateTs(new Date());
t.setUsername($doc.getEvent().getCreateUsername());
modify( $doc ) {setRuleRun(true)}; # Wolfgang <<<<<<
modify( $doc ) {addSaveTransaction(t)} ;
Here it is: You modify the EventRulesDocument, which causes another
activation of the same rule. One way of avoiding this is to add the rule
attribute no-loop true; another one is what you've done.
This isn't going to be your only rule?? This one alone is scant reason to
use an RBS.
fireAllRules( 1 ) isn't a good remedy, because (normally) a Production
System
relies on repeated firings, depending on rules and facts.
end
Additionally If any code in the world can be executed in the RHS,
then
why shouldn't I just use groovy as my rule language? At least then, I
can write math like such:
def num1=95;
def num2=90;
def num3=num2/num1;
and all of the math is done with big decimal objects. IF there is no
restriction on what can be done in the RHS what is the advantage to
using a rules engine over a general purpose scripting language?
There is a good section in the Drools Expert manual: "Why use a rule
engine?".
Don't do it just to be trendy ;-)
The
whole purpose for me choosing drools over Groovy eval() was that I
didn't want to give my users the ability to spawn threads, allocate
massive amounts of memory etc.
Seriously now, a Domain Specifiy Language is the maximum corset you can
force upon your users. But you'll have to know *all* they *may *do, and all
the
conditions.
-W
On 09/18/2010 10:59 AM, Wolfgang Laun wrote:
> On 18 September 2010 16:15, Matt Young <solid(a)youngdev.net
> <mailto:solid@youngdev.net>> wrote:
>
> I just started using drools and this is my first time implementing
> a rules engine. Everything has been pretty smooth but I have
> some quirks that I am not sure I can live with. 1) for some reason,
> if I execute the Knowlege session against an object, the knowlege
> session never returns.
>
>
>> I don't understand the term "execute...against an object". Do you
>> mean that you have just one fact inserted befor you call
>> fireAllRules()?
>
>> But anyway, this call not returning is almost certainly due to a
>> loop in your rules, or have you made sure that they don't?
>
>
> The only way I can get the ksession to return is to make IF (obj ==
> null) part of the LHS and make modify($input){setObj("complete")}
> part of the RHS This seems like a deficiency since I have users
> writing their own rules, I can see them forgetting this
> requirement.
>
>
>> Writing rules is programming, no holds barred :-)
>
>> Look into Domain Specific Languages (DSL) as a cushion for the
>> unwary.
>
>
>
> IS their a way to get the ksession to firerules only once? If so
> what does that look like?
>
>
>> kSession.fireUntilHalt( 1 );
>
>
> 2) It seems that any code I want can be executed in the RHS. I
> could literally execute something like the following in the RHS.
>
> byte[] b= new byte[10000000000000]; // Really big memory waste
>
> I also could just start a bunch of threads.
>
> The point is that I am intending to let the users write their own
> rules but I can't do that if there are no restrictions on how/what
> can be done inside the rules. Any suggestions? Are there
> sandboxes or filters I can activate to restrict the RHS?
>
>
>> Again: DSL.
>
>> Also, Rule Templates might be the starting point; it'd depend on
>> what the may be allowed to do.
>
>> And what about good old-fashioned training?!
>
>> -W
>
>
_______________________________________________
rules-users mailing list
rules-users(a)lists.jboss.org <mailto:rules-users@lists.jboss.org>
https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/rules-users
> _______________________________________________ rules-users mailing
> list rules-users(a)lists.jboss.org
> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/rules-users
- --
Cheers,
Matt Young
solid(a)youngdev.net
http://youngdev.net
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2:15 p.m.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Thanks Wolfgang,
The no-loop attribute fixed my crazy looping problem and your answer
on knowing EVERYTHING the rule might ever have to do is a good
answer. I guess there will be a certain amount of trust I have to
place in the users. In the meantime, are there any books on drools
you reccomend (other than the manual)?
On 09/18/2010 01:24 PM, Wolfgang Laun wrote:
On 18 September 2010 17:19, Matt Young <solid(a)youngdev.net
<mailto:solid@youngdev.net>> wrote:
ksession.execute(document);
I suppose this inserts a single EventRulesDocument object.
Here is the rule:
package sample1
import sample1.bean.EventRulesDocument; import
sample1.bean.Transaction; import java.util.Date;
rule "Standard processing rule"
when $doc : EventRulesDocument( ruleRun == false && # <<<
Wolfgang event != null && event.eventType.eventCode == "testevent"
) then
Transaction t = new Transaction(); t.setEvent($doc.getEvent());
t.setCategory($doc.getEvent().getEventType().getEventCode());
t.setTransactionAmount($doc.getEvent().getEventAmount());
t.setCreateTs(new Date());
t.setUsername($doc.getEvent().getCreateUsername());
modify( $doc ) {setRuleRun(true)}; # Wolfgang <<<<<< modify( $doc
) {addSaveTransaction(t)} ;
Here it is: You modify the EventRulesDocument, which causes
another activation of the same rule. One way of avoiding this is to
add the rule attribute no-loop true; another one is what you've
done.
This isn't going to be your only rule?? This one alone is scant
reason to use an RBS.
fireAllRules( 1 ) isn't a good remedy, because (normally) a
Production System relies on repeated firings, depending on rules
and facts.
end
Additionally If any code in the world can be executed in the RHS,
then why shouldn't I just use groovy as my rule language? At
least then, I can write math like such: def num1=95; def num2=90;
def num3=num2/num1;
and all of the math is done with big decimal objects. IF there is
no restriction on what can be done in the RHS what is the advantage
to using a rules engine over a general purpose scripting language?
There is a good section in the Drools Expert manual: "Why use a
rule engine?". Don't do it just to be trendy ;-)
The whole purpose for me choosing drools over Groovy eval() was
that I didn't want to give my users the ability to spawn threads,
allocate massive amounts of memory etc.
Seriously now, a Domain Specifiy Language is the maximum corset you
can force upon your users. But you'll have to know /all/ they /may
/do, and all the conditions.
-W
On 09/18/2010 10:59 AM, Wolfgang Laun wrote:
> On 18 September 2010 16:15, Matt Young <solid(a)youngdev.net
<mailto:solid@youngdev.net>
> <mailto:solid@youngdev.net <mailto:solid@youngdev.net>>> wrote:
>
> I just started using drools and this is my first time
> implementing a rules engine. Everything has been pretty smooth
> but I have some quirks that I am not sure I can live with. 1) for
> some
reason,
> if I execute the Knowlege session against an object, the
> knowlege session never returns.
>
>
>> I don't understand the term "execute...against an object". Do
>> you mean that you have just one fact inserted befor you call
>> fireAllRules()?
>
>> But anyway, this call not returning is almost certainly due to
>> a loop in your rules, or have you made sure that they don't?
>
>
> The only way I can get the ksession to return is to make IF
(obj ==
> null) part of the LHS and make
> modify($input){setObj("complete")} part of the RHS This seems
> like a deficiency since I have users writing their own rules, I
> can see them forgetting this requirement.
>
>
>> Writing rules is programming, no holds barred :-)
>
>> Look into Domain Specific Languages (DSL) as a cushion for the
>> unwary.
>
>
>
> IS their a way to get the ksession to firerules only once? If
> so what does that look like?
>
>
>> kSession.fireUntilHalt( 1 );
>
>
> 2) It seems that any code I want can be executed in the RHS. I
> could literally execute something like the following in the RHS.
>
> byte[] b= new byte[10000000000000]; // Really big memory waste
>
> I also could just start a bunch of threads.
>
> The point is that I am intending to let the users write their
> own rules but I can't do that if there are no restrictions on
> how/what can be done inside the rules. Any suggestions? Are
> there sandboxes or filters I can activate to restrict the RHS?
>
>
>> Again: DSL.
>
>> Also, Rule Templates might be the starting point; it'd depend
>> on what the may be allowed to do.
>
>> And what about good old-fashioned training?!
>
>> -W
>
>
_______________________________________________ rules-users mailing
list rules-users(a)lists.jboss.org
<mailto:rules-users@lists.jboss.org>
<mailto:rules-users@lists.jboss.org
<mailto:rules-users@lists.jboss.org>>
https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/rules-users
> _______________________________________________ rules-users
mailing
> list rules-users(a)lists.jboss.org
<mailto:rules-users@lists.jboss.org>
> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/rules-users
- -- Cheers, Matt Young solid(a)youngdev.net
<mailto:solid@youngdev.net> http://youngdev.net
- --
Cheers,
Matt Young
solid(a)youngdev.net
http://youngdev.net
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2:40 p.m.
On 18 September 2010 21:15, Matt Young <solid(a)youngdev.net> wrote:
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Hash: SHA1
Thanks Wolfgang,
The no-loop attribute fixed my crazy looping problem and your answer
on knowing EVERYTHING the rule might ever have to do is a good
answer. I guess there will be a certain amount of trust I have to
place in the users. In the meantime, are there any books on drools
you reccomend (other than the manual)?
The standard (or only?) answer to this is: Michal Bali's book, see
https://www.packtpub.com/drools-jboss-rules-5-0-developers-guide/book
If you are new to Rules and Rule Based Systems, you might also profit from
more general literature on RBS, even when a text is not direclty related to
Drools.
-W
5:47 a.m.
There is also Paul Browne's book, see
https://www.packtpub.com/jboss-drools-business-rules/book
Apparently it emphasizes Guvnor.
Compare the (detailed) contents available for both books; you should be able
to work out what's best for you.
-W
On 18 September 2010 21:40, Wolfgang Laun <wolfgang.laun(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On 18 September 2010 21:15, Matt Young <solid(a)youngdev.net> wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Thanks Wolfgang,
> The no-loop attribute fixed my crazy looping problem and your answer
> on knowing EVERYTHING the rule might ever have to do is a good
> answer. I guess there will be a certain amount of trust I have to
> place in the users. In the meantime, are there any books on drools
> you reccomend (other than the manual)?
>
The standard (or only?) answer to this is: Michal Bali's book, see
https://www.packtpub.com/drools-jboss-rules-5-0-developers-guide/book
If you are new to Rules and Rule Based Systems, you might also profit from
more general literature on RBS, even when a text is not direclty related
to
Drools.
-W
10:32 a.m.
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Hash: SHA1
OK I looked closer at what Wolfgang said. By calling fireAllRules(int
limit) instead of execute(object), my rules now fire and return
immidiately without having to set a false condition for the lhs in the RHS
That still does not give me the ability to properly restrict what
objects the rules can create etc.
On 09/18/2010 10:59 AM, Wolfgang Laun wrote:
On 18 September 2010 16:15, Matt Young <solid(a)youngdev.net
<mailto:solid@youngdev.net>> wrote:
I just started using drools and this is my first time implementing
a rules engine. Everything has been pretty smooth but I have
some quirks that I am not sure I can live with. 1) for some reason,
if I execute the Knowlege session against an object, the knowlege
session never returns.
> I don't understand the term "execute...against an object". Do you
> mean that you have just one fact inserted befor you call
> fireAllRules()?
> But anyway, this call not returning is almost certainly due to a
> loop in your rules, or have you made sure that they don't?
The only way I can get the ksession to return is to make IF (obj ==
null) part of the LHS and make modify($input){setObj("complete")}
part of the RHS This seems like a deficiency since I have users
writing their own rules, I can see them forgetting this
requirement.
> Writing rules is programming, no holds barred :-)
> Look into Domain Specific Languages (DSL) as a cushion for the
> unwary.
IS their a way to get the ksession to firerules only once? If so
what does that look like?
> kSession.fireUntilHalt( 1 );
2) It seems that any code I want can be executed in the RHS. I
could literally execute something like the following in the RHS.
byte[] b= new byte[10000000000000]; // Really big memory waste
I also could just start a bunch of threads.
The point is that I am intending to let the users write their own
rules but I can't do that if there are no restrictions on how/what
can be done inside the rules. Any suggestions? Are there
sandboxes or filters I can activate to restrict the RHS?
> Again: DSL.
> Also, Rule Templates might be the starting point; it'd depend on
> what the may be allowed to do.
> And what about good old-fashioned training?!
> -W
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- --
Cheers,
Matt Young
solid(a)youngdev.net
http://youngdev.net
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3:53 a.m.
1) Have a look at the examples; they return OK. You don't say much about
your rules for any further help.
2) DSL would restrict what users could enter.
On 18 September 2010 15:15, Matt Young <solid(a)youngdev.net> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
I just started using drools and this is my first time implementing a
rules engine. Everything has been pretty smooth but I have some
quirks that I am not sure I can live with.
1) for some reason, if I execute the Knowlege session against an
object, the knowlege session never returns. The only way I can get
the ksession to return is to make IF (obj == null) part of the LHS and
make modify($input){setObj("complete")} part of the RHS
This seems like a deficiency since I have users writing their own
rules, I can see them forgetting this requirement. IS their a way to
get the ksession to firerules only once? If so what does that look like?
2) It seems that any code I want can be executed in the RHS. I could
literally execute something like the following in the RHS.
byte[] b= new byte[10000000000000]; // Really big memory waste
I also could just start a bunch of threads.
The point is that I am intending to let the users write their own
rules but I can't do that if there are no restrictions on how/what can
be done inside the rules. Any suggestions? Are there sandboxes or
filters I can activate to restrict the RHS?
- --
Cheers,
Matt Young
solid(a)youngdev.net
http://youngdev.net
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participants (3)
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Matt Young -
Michael Anstis -
Wolfgang Laun