I am never on HipChat at this point. So don't expect any important matters
to be discussed there ;)
On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 9:08 AM Sanne Grinovero <sanne(a)hibernate.org> wrote:
On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 at 10:25, Yoann Rodiere
<yoann(a)hibernate.org> wrote:
>
> > You also need to use ctrl+enter to send a message, the default enter
is a
> new line in your message
>
> There's a checkbox to change that, and its value is persisted, so you
only
> have to tick it once. It's located just beside the "Send" button,
I'm
sure
> you saw it :)
> But apart from that, yes, I agree it's not very user-friendly. It's more
> about the user getting used to the tool than the tool being made obvious
> from the start.
>
> I'm also unsure how long Gitter will continue to be maintained, and how
> well it will be. But we're mostly done migrating to Gitter; I don't see
> much activity on HipChat anymore.
Hey wait a second :) You invited us to try Gitter. That's fine but we
never decided we're migrating to Gitter.
I'm certainly not on Gitter regularly nor right now, so I'm expecting
any important matter to be discussed on mailing lists or HipChat.
>
> Objectively, and regardless of my preferred tool, the main drawback I can
> see about not moving to Zulip (or another tool) now, but only later, is
the
> confusion it will potentially create for users: we were on HipChat,
> announced we were moving to Gitter and changed the links on our website,
> and a few months later we move again. That is, I think, something we want
> to avoid.
>
> So the question really is: is Gitter the right tool for us, and do we
trust
> it to stay the right tool for us long enough (say, at least a couple of
> years)?
>
> Yoann Rodière
> Hibernate NoORM Team
> yoann(a)hibernate.org
>
>
> On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 at 10:41, Guillaume Smet <guillaume.smet(a)gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > So, I'm using Zulip right now on a daily basis.
> >
> > I maintain my first impression that it's really not user friendly.
> >
> > The fact that you are required to create topics for discussions (or
find a
> > suitable topic in a list of a gazillion topics previously created,
> > obviously without a search engine where you need it - you have a
global one
> > at the top where you can find topics) is a pain. You also need to use
> > ctrl+enter to send a message, the default enter is a new line in your
> > message. The UI is not very good and I don't see any improvement since
the
> > last time I tested it so I'm wondering if they are investing in it.
> >
> > We could decide to use it as a dev team as I suppose we would get used
to
> > it, but I seriously don't think it's a good alternative for our users
to
> > occasionally come chat with us.
> >
> > As for Gitter, I agree with the notification issue, the web client is
all
> > buggy. Haven't tested the desktop client yet.
> >
> > I must admit that I prefer using Gitter. Probably until I get bitten by
> > the 1-1 history issue :).
> >
> > From what I can see, GitLab doesn't invest much in Gitter either so I
> > wonder if it's gonna be viable in the long term.
> >
> > I suppose we'll see.
> >
> > --
> > Guillaume
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 8:58 AM Yoann Rodiere <yoann(a)hibernate.org>
wrote:
> >
> >> The WildFly team is moving from Slack to Zulip, because Zulip seems
to be
> >> the only solution that is free, provides unlimited history, and allows
> >> unlimited users even in private rooms (for OSS projects, at least).
Gitter
> >> has all that, except unlimited users, as we are limited to 25 people
per
> >> private room.
> >>
> >> You can join them here:
https://wildfly.zulipchat.com/
> >>
> >> Back to our solution... We are now 71 days away from the
decommissioning
> >> of
> >> HipChat. *Is everyone happy with Gitter?* Do you see a strong reason
to
> >> keep looking for another solution?
> >>
> >> For my part, I noticed problems with the web client, in particular
with
> >> notifications, which are sub-standard, but with the desktop client
> >> everything seems to work fine. It's simple, but it does the job.
> >>
> >> Yoann Rodière
> >> Hibernate NoORM Team
> >> yoann(a)hibernate.org
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 at 14:40, Yoann Rodiere <yoann(a)hibernate.org>
wrote:
> >>
> >> > On top of not being able to add more than 25 people to a private
room,
> >> > there's another limitation of Gitter that Fabio just noticed: the
chat
> >> > history for 1-to-1 conversations is very limited. In our case, we
can
> >> only
> >> > see 2 days back, and there's no concept of archives like there is
in
> >> rooms.
> >> >
> >> > Meanwhile, the WildFly team is giving up on Slack because of the
very
> >> > limited size of history in free plans. They are investigating Zulip,
> >> > RocketChat and MatterMost in particular. Maybe let's see what
they
end
> >> up
> >> > choosing and why?
> >> >
> >> > Yoann Rodière
> >> > Hibernate NoORM Team
> >> > yoann(a)hibernate.org
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Tue, 13 Nov 2018 at 11:33, Yoann Rodiere
<yoann(a)hibernate.org>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On Tue, 13 Nov 2018 at 08:49, Yoann Rodiere
<yoann(a)hibernate.org>
> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> > Assuming the new chat platform takes off, there's a
risk it
might be
> >> >>> too successful as well
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Ok. Well, I guess we'll see. As I mentioned above, I
don't think
> >> forcing
> >> >>> people to have a GitHub account will be very effective, but I
can't
> >> suggest
> >> >>> a perfect solution either. Bots answering with a few links
> >> (documentation,
> >> >>> etc.) to the first message of each user come to mind, but
that
could
> >> be
> >> >>> considered rude, so I wouldn't do that unless the traffic
becomes
> >> >>> unmanageable. Other solutions include kicking out
"spammers" (but
that
> >> >>> doesn't work if it's many users asking a single
question), or
making
> >> the
> >> >>> -dev rooms invite-only and only checking the user rooms once
in a
> >> while
> >> >>> (might work if Gitter sends emails when your are mentioned
while
> >> offline).
> >> >>> So, yeah, in short: I don't really know.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> > More just accountability. But if some form of login in
needed
to
> >> use
> >> >>> Gitter, that's enough for me. Sounded like the other
option was
> >> "allow
> >> >>> anonymous", which I wanted to avoid.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Then it should be fine: anonymous access apparently only
allows to
> >> read
> >> >>> messages. Login through GitLab, GitHub or Twitter is necessary
in
> >> order to
> >> >>> start posting new messages.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Yoann Rodière
> >> >>> Hibernate NoORM Team
> >> >>> yoann(a)hibernate.org
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 at 19:34, Steve Ebersole
<steve(a)hibernate.org
>
> >> >>> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> For me its not so much about "the right kind of
people". More
just
> >> >>>> accountability. But if some form of login in needed to
use
Gitter,
> >> that's
> >> >>>> enough for me. Sounded like the other option was
"allow
anonymous",
> >> which
> >> >>>> I wanted to avoid.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 11:41 AM Sanne Grinovero <
> >> sanne(a)hibernate.org>
> >> >>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>> On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 at 17:27, Yoann Rodiere <
yoann(a)hibernate.org>
> >> >>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>> >
> >> >>>>> > I don't see why we should force people to
have a GitHub
account,
> >> >>>>> considering there are other means of logging into
Gitter.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Ok.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> >
> >> >>>>> > As to getting the right type of people, I'm
not sure it's
> >> relevant.
> >> >>>>> Most people are likely to have one, and those who
don't are
likely
> >> to not
> >> >>>>> have one for political reasons (think free software
extremists)
> >> rather than
> >> >>>>> because they aren't tech savvy enough: while the
"hibernate"
naming
> >> might
> >> >>>>> confuse users looking for information about grizzly
bears, I
doubt
> >> my
> >> >>>>> grandmother, my 7-year-old nephew or even my
non-software-engineer
> >> of a
> >> >>>>> wife would end up on Gitter by mistake.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Well since that's obvious, clearly I was referring
to a
different
> >> way
> >> >>>>> of cathegorizing people joining@ not by age or
expertise in
> >> technology
> >> >>>>> but in having reasonable expectations and willing to
do some
> >> research
> >> >>>>> before bothering us all.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> You probably weren't around yet, but Hibernate has
had hard
times in
> >> >>>>> which it was "victim of its own success":
just too many
> >> >>>>> kinda-interested people making a ton of basic
questions that
could
> >> be
> >> >>>>> easily solved otherwise.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Some "barriers" we have in place have made
it manageable; of
course
> >> I
> >> >>>>> can't tell if it's all merit of the barriers
of entry or just
people
> >> >>>>> coming in lower volumes with better intentions, but
I'm
confident
> >> that
> >> >>>>> some of the barriers we have have helped to keep some
sanity
(e.g.
> >> >>>>> login on #hibernate-dev on IRC requiring an account).
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Assuming the new chat platform takes off, there's
a risk it
might be
> >> >>>>> too successful as well. But I guess we'll see, or
let's use a
very
> >> >>>>> bad chat platform so to keep people from coming :P
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> >
> >> >>>>> >
> >> >>>>> > Yoann Rodière
> >> >>>>> > Hibernate NoORM Team
> >> >>>>> > yoann(a)hibernate.org
> >> >>>>> >
> >> >>>>> >
> >> >>>>> > On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 at 18:02, Sanne Grinovero
<
> >> sanne(a)hibernate.org>
> >> >>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>> >>
> >> >>>>> >> On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 at 16:02, Steve Ebersole
<
> >> steve(a)hibernate.org>
> >> >>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>> >> >
> >> >>>>> >> > What is it a conscious decision to not
require a GitHub
account
> >> >>>>> to join these rooms? I just noticed that is a
toggle-option in
the
> >> room's
> >> >>>>> settings also.
> >> >>>>> >>
> >> >>>>> >> I don't remember. We created these rooms
as an experiment in
> >> 2014..
> >> >>>>> >> Yoann created some more rooms recently.
> >> >>>>> >>
> >> >>>>> >> Should we enforce people to have a Github
account? I'd like
> >> that, I
> >> >>>>> >> think it would better nudge towards getting
the right type of
> >> people
> >> >>>>> >> to join.
> >> >>>>> >>
> >> >>>>> >> Thanks,
> >> >>>>> >> Sanne
> >> >>>>> >>
> >> >>>>> >>
> >> >>>>> >> >
> >> >>>>> >> > On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 6:17 AM
Guillaume Smet <
> >> >>>>> guillaume.smet(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>>>> >> >>
> >> >>>>> >> >> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 11:35 AM
Sanne Grinovero <
> >> >>>>> sanne(a)hibernate.org>
> >> >>>>> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>>>> >> >>
> >> >>>>> >> >> > If one wants a lot of features
then clearly only Slack
is
> >> the
> >> >>>>> way to
> >> >>>>> >> >> > go. Not saying we should go
with Slack, just that we'll
need
> >> >>>>> to be
> >> >>>>> >> >> > patient and we'll always be
short of some features - if
> >> that's
> >> >>>>> not
> >> >>>>> >> >> > acceptable then only Slack will
make you happy.
> >> >>>>> >> >> >
> >> >>>>> >> >>
> >> >>>>> >> >> TBH, I don't care about fancy
features. Gitter is OK for
me
> >> but
> >> >>>>> yeah not
> >> >>>>> >> >> having sound is really annoying.
> >> >>>>> >> >>
> >> >>>>> >> >> I might miss notifications from time
to time.
> >> >>>>> >> >>
> >> >>>>> >> >> In any case, it will mostly be a
problem for you all if
you
> >> ping
> >> >>>>> me :).
> >> >>>>> >> >>
> >> >>>>> >> >>
> >> >>>>> >> >> > BTW the issue you linked to
suggests the native clients
> >> don't
> >> >>>>> have
> >> >>>>> >> >> > this specific problem.. might
want to try that?
> >> >>>>> >> >> >
> >> >>>>> >> >>
> >> >>>>> >> >> I prefer to have it in the browser
where I do most of my
> >> >>>>> interactions with
> >> >>>>> >> >> people.
> >> >>>>> >> >>
> >> >>>>> >> >> And AFAIK, Yoann wrote they were
only packaged as deb
(and not
> >> >>>>> very excited
> >> >>>>> >> >> about compiling it).
> >> >>>>> >> >>
> >> >>>>> >> >> BTW, tbh, I'm a bit worried
GitLab has only one dev on it
if
> >> >>>>> they want to
> >> >>>>> >> >> become a player in this area. They
certainly have some
work to
> >> >>>>> do to catch
> >> >>>>> >> >> up with others.
> >> >>>>> >> >>
> >> >>>>> >> >> --
> >> >>>>> >> >> Guillaume
> >> >>>>> >> >>
_______________________________________________
> >> >>>>> >> >> hibernate-dev mailing list
> >> >>>>> >> >> hibernate-dev(a)lists.jboss.org
> >> >>>>> >> >>
https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
> >> >>>>> >>
_______________________________________________
> >> >>>>> >> hibernate-dev mailing list
> >> >>>>> >> hibernate-dev(a)lists.jboss.org
> >> >>>>> >>
https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> hibernate-dev mailing list
> >> hibernate-dev(a)lists.jboss.org
> >>
https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
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>
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