Re: [hibernate-dev] replace Pax Exam with Docker

On 12 January 2018 at 17:32, Brett Meyer <brett(a)hibernate.org&gt; wrote: > If I don't have time to contribute to Pax Exam, I certainly don't have > time to start a new project haha... > > And realistically, that "something new" would likely involve containers > anyway. > > At this point, mostly a question of 1) status quo, 2) Docker (or any > other container-based solution), or 3) try screwing around with Pax Exam > in "server-only" mode (but I don't have high hopes there). Sure. Docker is now available on the CI slaves too, so that's not a problem. The only annoyance is that the whole ORM team - and anyone contributing - would need to have Docker as well, but that doesn't seem too bad to me... and was likely bound to happen for other tools :) Steve, Chris and Andrea? Ok with that? Maybe you have Docker running already? > > > On 1/12/18 12:27 PM, Sanne Grinovero wrote: >> Ok, looks like you really should start something new :) >> >> Hopefully many of those other annoyed Karaf developers will follow. >> >> On 12 January 2018 at 13:59, Brett Meyer <brett(a)hibernate.org&gt; wrote: >>> Plus, for me, it's more a question of time. I only have a bit available >>> for open source work these days, and I'd rather spend that knocking out >>> some of the hibernate-osgi tasks we've had on our plate for a while. I >>> unfortunately don't have anything left to contribute to Pax Exam itself, >>> assuming that would even fix the problem. >>> >>> Even worse, we're barely using the integration tests for anything more >>> than a simple smoke test at this point, since it seems like every time >>> we touch it something new goes wrong. Looking for a more *consistent* >>> solution -- need more confidence in the backbone. >>> >>> >>> On 1/12/18 8:56 AM, Brett Meyer wrote: >>>> Sorry Gunnar/Sanne, should have clarified this first: >>>> >>>> We actually used Arquillian before Pax Exam, and the experience was >>>> far worse (somewhat of a long story)... >>>> >>>>> Pax Exam was just "helping" to deploy/run things in Karaf, so I >>>> can't imagine using Karaf without the helpers being a walk in the park >>>> >>>> That's not actually the case. The way Pax Exam currently runs our >>>> tests is fundamentally part of the problem. The test code is >>>> dynamically wrapped in an actual bundle, using something like >>>> tiny-bundles, and executed *within* the container itself. Pax >>>> overrides runs with additional probes, overrides logging >>>> infrastructure, etc. Those nuances can often be the source of many of >>>> the bugs (there are a ton of classloader implications, etc. -- IIRC, >>>> this was one area where Arquillian was much, much worse). There are >>>> some benefits to that setup, but for Hibernate it mainly gets in the way. >>>> >>>> It *does* have a "server mode" where tests run outside of the >>>> container, but I vaguely remember going down that path early on and >>>> hitting a roadblock. For the life of me, I can't remember the >>>> specifics. But my pushback here is that ultimately Docker might be >>>> more preferable, giving us more of a real world scenario to do true >>>> e2e tests without something else in the middle. >>>> >>>>> so I can't imagine using Karaf without the helpers being a walk in >>>> the park; e.g. having to deal with HTTP operations comes with its own >>>> baggage {dependencies, complexity, speed, .. } and generally more >>>> stuff to maintain. >>>> >>>> I guess I respectfully disagree with that, but purely due to Karaf >>>> features. Our features.xml does most of the heavy lifting for us >>>> w/r/t getting Hibernate provisioned. The same would be true with the >>>> test harness bundle/feature. REST is simple and out-of-the-box thanks >>>> to Karaf + CXF or Camel. For other possible routes (Karaf commands), >>>> we already have code available in our demo/quickstart projects. >>>> >>>>> Also: considered contributing to Pax? >>>> Yes, of course. But the fact that numerous Karaf *committers* >>>> themselves have a long history of built-up frustration on it doesn't >>>> leave me optimistic. A couple of them had tried to pitch in at one >>>> point and weren't able to get anywhere. >>>> >>>>> but it seems their developers really expect their users to be deeply >>>> familiar with it all >>>> >>>> Absolutely! But again, our struggles also come down to the >>>> fundamental way Pax Exam works... >>>> >>>> >>>> On 1/12/18 6:27 AM, Sanne Grinovero wrote: >>>>> +1 to explore alternatives to Pax Exam, but I'd be wary of maintining >>>>> our own test infrastructure. >>>>> >>>>> Pax Exam was just "helping" to deploy/run things in Karaf, so I can't >>>>> imagine using Karaf without the helpers being a walk in the park; e.g. >>>>> having to deal with HTTP operations comes with its own baggage >>>>> {dependencies, complexity, speed, .. } and generally more stuff to >>>>> maintain. >>>>> >>>>> So.. +1 to try out Arquillian or anything else. Or maybe you could >>>>> start your own tool, but I'd prefer to see it in a separate repository >>>>> :) e.g. a nice Gradle plugin so maybe you get more people helping? >>>>> >>>>> Also: considered contributing to Pax? My personal experience with it >>>>> has always been a pain but if I had to try identify the reason, it was >>>>> mostly caused by me being unfamiliar with Karaf and not having good >>>>> clues to track down the real failure; maybe some minor error reporting >>>>> improvements could make a big difference to its usability? Just >>>>> saying, I don't feel like Pax is bad, but it seems their developers >>>>> really expect their users to be deeply familiar with it all - feels >>>>> like the typical case in which they could use some feedback and a >>>>> hand. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Sanne >>>>> >>>>> On 12 January 2018 at 08:22, Gunnar Morling&lt;gunnar(a)hibernate.org&gt; wrote: >>>>>> Hi Brett, >>>>>> >>>>>> We also had our fair share of frustration with Pax Exam in HV, and I was >>>>>> (more than once) at the point of dropping it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Docker could work, but as you say it's a bit of a heavy dependency, if not >>>>>> required anyways. Not sure whether I'd like to add this as a prerequisite >>>>>> for the HV build to be executed. And tests in separate profiles tend to be >>>>>> "forgotten" in my experience. >>>>>> >>>>>> One other approach could be to use Arquillian's OSGi support (see >>>>>> https://github.com/arquillian/arquillian-container-osgi), did you consider >>>>>> to use that one as an alternative? >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> >>>>>> --Gunnar >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 2018-01-12 3:34 GMT+01:00 Brett Meyer&lt;brett(a)hibernate.org&gt;: >>>>>> >>>>>>> <tired-rant> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm fed up with Pax Exam and would love to replace it as the >>>>>>> hibernate-osgi integration test harness. Most of the Karaf committers >>>>>>> I've been working with hate it more than I do. Every single time we >>>>>>> upgrade the Karaf version, something less-than-minor in hibernate-osgi, >>>>>>> upgrade/change dependencies, or attempt to upgrade Pax Exam itself, >>>>>>> there's some new obfuscated failure. And no matter how much I pray, it >>>>>>> refuses to let us get to the container logs to figure out what >>>>>>> happened. Tis a house of cards. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> </tired-rant> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> One alternative that recently came up elsewhere: use Docker to bootstrap >>>>>>> the container, hit it with our features.xml, install a test bundle that >>>>>>> exposes functionality externally (over HTTP, Karaf commands, etc), then >>>>>>> hit the endpoints and run assertions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pros: true "integration test", plain vanilla Karaf, direct access to all >>>>>>> logs, easier to eventually support and test other containers. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cons: Need Docker installed for local test runs, probably safer to >>>>>>> isolate the integration test behind a disabled-by-default Maven profile. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Any gut reactions? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> OSGi is fun and I'm not at all bitter, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -Brett- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ;) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> hibernate-dev mailing list >>>>>>> hibernate-dev(a)lists.jboss.org >>>>>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> hibernate-dev mailing list >>>>>> hibernate-dev(a)lists.jboss.org >>>>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> hibernate-dev mailing list >>>>> hibernate-dev(a)lists.jboss.org >>>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev >>> _______________________________________________ >>> hibernate-dev mailing list >>> hibernate-dev(a)lists.jboss.org >>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev > > > _______________________________________________ > hibernate-dev mailing list > hibernate-dev(a)lists.jboss.org > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev _______________________________________________ hibernate-dev mailing list hibernate-dev(a)lists.jboss.org https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev