Hi Emmanuel, I did some updates to HV roadmap with this PR [1]. There's also some updates to HV contribute page. Maybe somebody could check those changes and if needed add more to what is present, if what is already there is fine. Have a nice day, Marko [1] https://github.com/hibernate/hibernate.org/pull/123. 2017-09-06 9:37 GMT+02:00 Yoann Rodiere <yoann(a)hibernate.org&gt;:

Thanks for that Emmanuel. I'll fix the one-liner describing the release, I believe we had already noticed this in the past: they need to describe the whole minor not the micro update. The Search roadmap actually also needs a little re-touch, I'll propose a PR for that too. Regarding past roadmaps: I don't like to clutter the roadmap page with the previous copies, especially as they should have a different nature of not being a plan but being a record of what was actually done. Also, we did agree in past meetings to remove all the old ones. e.g. we never ported the release notes for version 3.x and 4.x as back then we decided this was no place for that. Happy to revisit this decision but let's separate them: What about a "past releases" page at the same level of roadmap, and linking to it both from the main Search menu and the roadmap? +1 for Yoann's proposal to re-introduce the compatibility matrix (there was one ~6 years ago). I also had proposed to reintroduce it more recently, and was not done on the grounds that it gets out of date quickly. Still users badly need it so unless someone has a better idea, let's agree on trying to keep it up to date manually. Let's try structure it in such a way that it won't need to be updated for every single release. Thanks, Sanne On 6 September 2017 at 08:37, Yoann Rodiere <yoann(a)hibernate.org&gt; wrote:

Hey, I pushed an update to staging. I only converted the "Search" part for now. What changes: - The _data folder structured changed a bit, so that we can introduces a YAML file for each series (5.5, 5.6, 5.6, 5.8, ...), containing a summary of this series and a list of integration constraints (ORM > 5.2, etc.) - The "Downloads" page is renamed to "Releases", since, well, it's about more than just downloads. See http://staging.hibernate.org/search/releases/ - The "Releases" page now includes a "Compatibilty matrix" section based on the new data I mentioned above - The "Releases" page now includes links to one page for each series ("More on the 5.8 series") - There is now one page for each series (see http://staging.hibernate.org/search/releases/series/5.8/). This page includes: - A short (one-line) summary of this series - A reminder of the integration constraints for this series - A section about the main changes in this release. I only wrote something for the 5.8 series for now, and I basically copy/pasted sections from various blog posts. - A list of all releases in this series. What I didn't do, but could make sense: - add a sub-menu element under "Releases" for each series - link to the documentation for each of the latest releases from the "Releases" page - link to the latest documentation and to the migration guides from each series' page What do you all think? Emmanuel, would this address your concerns? Steve, would this be a good fit for ORM? Yoann Rodière Hibernate NoORM Team yoann(a)hibernate.org On 6 September 2017 at 17:16, Steve Ebersole <steve(a)hibernate.org&gt; wrote:

Sanne, I addressed both your comments. Is it better? I also addressed Guillaume's comment on HipChat, and made the compatibility matrix a bit... fuzzier, so that we won't have to update it as often. We can still make it very specific if we want to, but we won't be limited by the layout anymore. Yoann Rodière Hibernate NoORM Team yoann(a)hibernate.org On 8 September 2017 at 15:11, Sanne Grinovero <sanne(a)hibernate.org&gt; wrote:

For me the real problem is that its not just Downloads/Releases that should be (need to be really) treated in this manner - our documentation is also family specific. So for ORM I had envisioned a "versions" (although "releases" works just as well) component to the url scheme. Vlad did this for documentation (see the version drop down), but we have not yet tackled this for versions - too many other more pressing tasks. Also, I am not sure yet the best overall structure for this - some of the project related information is not version-specific (FAQ, Books, Paid Support, etc) while others are. To me personally, I think the "Documentation" and Downloads/Versions/Releases should not be on the left nav. Or, leave them on the nav and have them implicitly direct to the most-recent-prod-release-family. But overall I had envisioned a release-specific page - specific to release families (5.0, 5.1, etc) as opposed to specific micro/bugfix releases (5.0.1, 5.0.2, etc). This release page would include: 1. General description - what were the main points or developments for this family? 2. Links to its documentation 3. List of all micro/bugfix releases as a sort-of simplified changelog. This part is still unclear in my head as to the best way to represent this information, but ultimately each entry in this list would need to include: 1. announcement URL 2. sysopsis of the main fixes/changes 3. link to the full changelog For the most part, the information I listed for the micro/bugfix release entries is covered in the release announcement so one option is to simply link to each announcement for that family - possibly driven by the release yaml files. This also fixes what I find to be a very confusing list of "latest" releases. I think that works much better as a single entry on the release family page. Will what you did "work" for ORM? Sure. What I describe is just what I personally think would be better in terms of ORM needs, but I have absolutely no resources to do that atm. So for now, whatever y'all deem is best is probably the best way to go. On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 8:11 AM Sanne Grinovero <sanne(a)hibernate.org&gt; wrote:

Following Steve's comments, I made another few changes for the sake of usability: - Moved the series-specific pages so that the path is more consistent with ORM documentation; the series-specific page for Search 5.8, for instance, is now http://staging.hibernate.org/search/releases/5.8/ - Changed the list of releases in the "releases" page: renamed "Latest releases" to "Maintained series", and made the series version more prominent, on the left, while the latest release version is a bit less prominent, on the right. That way the list should be a bit less confusing. - Added links to the reference from the "Releases" page: http://staging.hibernate.org/search/releases/ - Added a hero-unit at the top of the series-specific pages, with a few links: http://staging.hibernate.org/search/releases/5.8/ Yoann Rodière Hibernate NoORM Team yoann(a)hibernate.org On 8 September 2017 at 16:44, Yoann Rodiere <yoann(a)hibernate.org&gt; wrote:

Hey Yoann and all, Thanks Yoann for stepping up. This is definitely much better. Here are non ordered comments: - Releases speaks less than downloads, Where do I download Hibernate X is a question we want addressed from the top level menus - if you do downloads -> releases, you need to also write some redirect rules not to break URLs - I don't like the term maintained much, I think latest like you proposed makes it more neutral. You could even just name them Series - The migration guide should probably be referenced from each individual series page. - the matrix does not scale very well to that many versions. - in the dedicated series page, "Reference" is confusing, I'd probably replace it with documentation or main documentation Emmanuel On Fri 17-09-08 14:53, Yoann Rodiere wrote:

On Tue 17-09-12 13:50, Yoann Rodiere wrote: You are right on principle. But if you look around, pretty much all software websites have a download button leading to a page where you can find releases, changelog etc. People are trained. http://kafka.apache.org/downloads http://struts.apache.org/download.cgi#struts2513 http://vertx.io/download/ Spring is the exception but they have one big page for everything per project. Not what we want. And GitHub which has Releases https://github.com/google/guava I'm still not recovered from GitHub's move from Downloads to Releases to be honest. If everyone thinks Releases is clearer and more intuitive, I won't block. It's more the number of columns, what if you add more version, should I scroll horizontally? Also releeases tend to be shown vertically with version in desc order. This model breaks a bit this habit. It does not work well on phones either.

At least versions are in desc order :D More seriously, I was more worried about the number of dependencies than about the number of series. We don't want to maintain a hundred branches, so we'll probably try to keep the number of series to a minimum, but we do want to offer as much as possible to users, so we may offer many different integrations, and thus many different dependencies. Just think if the ORM team wants to display supported versions of each DBMS... So I thought showing versions horizontally would be more future-proof. I'll try to add horizontal scrolling to the table. The oldest releases may not be displayed, but then those are not the one we want to advertise, so... And in any case, we have limited horizontal space, so we have to hide *something*. About phones, I think bootstrap has something, I'll give it a try. On "Downloads" we only want to promote the active branches; have some Sure, we can do that. But the "downloads" page will essentially be a stripped-down version of the "releases" page. Yoann Rodière Hibernate NoORM Team yoann(a)hibernate.org On 13 September 2017 at 11:48, Sanne Grinovero <sanne(a)hibernate.org&gt; wrote: > On 13 September 2017 at 10:41, Emmanuel Bernard <emmanuel(a)hibernate.org&gt; > wrote: > > On Tue 17-09-12 13:50, Yoann Rodiere wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> - Releases speaks less than downloads, Where do I download Hibernate X > >>> is a question we want addressed from the top level menus > >>> > >> > >> Always amazed that there's still people out there actually downloading > >> JARs > >> manually. But yes, we shouldn't forget about them. > >> > >> My problem with "downloads" is that, while it conveys the correct > meaning > >> for the minority (I hope) of users not using Maven/Gradle, it's really > not > >> appropriate as an entry point to pages giving information about > >> series/releases. > >> Let's put it that way: > >> > >> - To a user looking for info about a particular release (maven GAV, > >> changelog, ...) , a "download" entry isn't even remotely relevant > >> - To a user looking to download packages, a "releases" entry does > seem a > >> bit relevant > > > > > > You are right on principle. But if you look around, pretty much all > > software websites have a download button leading to a page where you can > > find releases, changelog etc. People are trained. > > > > http://kafka.apache.org/downloads > > http://struts.apache.org/download.cgi#struts2513 > > http://vertx.io/download/ > > > > > > Spring is the exception but they have one big page for everything per > > project. Not what we want. > > And GitHub which has Releases https://github.com/google/guava > > > > I'm still not recovered from GitHub's move from Downloads to Releases to > > be honest. > > > > If everyone thinks Releases is clearer and more intuitive, I won't > > block. > > - having a "Downloads" link is essential > - having a "Releases" page is what we think is more useful, for many > good reasons > > Yet we agree they are slightly different in nature. Could we ride the > differences and generate them both? > > Especially "Releases" could be a good home for all older releases and > the "Past Roadmaps" which Emmanuel suggested before we should have, > yet I said they don't belong on "Roadmap". > On "Downloads" we only want to promote the active branches; have some > > Thanks, > Sanne > > > > > >> > >> But if you really want a "download" entry in the menu... would it be > okay > >> if it just redirected to the "releases" page? I'll do that for now. > >> > >> - if you do downloads -> releases, you need to also write some redirect > >>> > >>> rules not to break URLs > >>> > >> > >> I already did. Redirects don't seem to work locally for some reason, > >> though. They work on staging. > >> > >> > >>> - I don't like the term maintained much, I think latest like you > >>> proposed makes it more neutral. You could even just name them Series > >>> > >> > >> Steve found "latest releases" "confusing" (if I understood correctly). I > >> changed it to "Series" as you suggested. > >> > >> > >>> - The migration guide should probably be referenced from each > individual > >>> series page. > >>> > >> > >> Done. > >> > >> > >>> - the matrix does not scale very well to that many versions. > >>> > >> > >> Could you be more specific? Is it that you're having trouble finding out > >> which cell relates to which HSearch version, or which cell relates to > >> which > >> dependency, or about the size of columns not being the same, or... ? I'd > >> rather know exactly what's wrong before trying to mess with the CSS, > >> because solutions to each of these problems will probably require to use > >> more horizontal space, and as you can see we don't have that much > >> available. > > > > > > It's more the number of columns, what if you add more version, should I > > scroll horizontally? Also releeases tend to be shown vertically with > > version in desc order. This model breaks a bit this habit. > > > > It does not work well on phones either. > > > > > > > >> > >> > >>> - in the dedicated series page, "Reference" is confusing, I'd probably > >>> replace it with documentation or main documentation > >> > >> > >> > >> Done. > >> > >> Since there seems to be a general agreement that it's not worse than it > >> used to be, I'll send a PR soon. We can continue the discussion there. > >> > >> > >> > >> Yoann Rodière > >> Hibernate NoORM Team > >> yoann(a)hibernate.org > >> > >> On 11 September 2017 at 15:54, Emmanuel Bernard <emmanuel(a)hibernate.org > > > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Hey Yoann and all, > >>> > >>> Thanks Yoann for stepping up. This is definitely much better. > >>> Here are non ordered comments: > >>> > >>> - Releases speaks less than downloads, Where do I download Hibernate X > >>> is a question we want addressed from the top level menus > >>> - if you do downloads -> releases, you need to also write some redirect > >>> rules not to break URLs > >>> - I don't like the term maintained much, I think latest like you > >>> proposed makes it more neutral. You could even just name them Series > >>> - The migration guide should probably be referenced from each > individual > >>> series page. > >>> - the matrix does not scale very well to that many versions. > >>> - in the dedicated series page, "Reference" is confusing, I'd probably > >>> replace it with documentation or main documentation > >>> > >>> Emmanuel > >>> > >>> On Fri 17-09-08 14:53, Yoann Rodiere wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hey, > >>>> > >>>> I pushed an update to staging. I only converted the "Search" part for > >>>> now. > >>>> What changes: > >>>> > >>>> - The _data folder structured changed a bit, so that we can > introduces > >>>> a > >>>> YAML file for each series (5.5, 5.6, 5.6, 5.8, ...), containing a > >>>> summary > >>>> of this series and a list of integration constraints (ORM > 5.2, > etc.) > >>>> - The "Downloads" page is renamed to "Releases", since, well, it's > >>>> about > >>>> more than just downloads. See > >>>> http://staging.hibernate.org/search/releases/ > >>>> - The "Releases" page now includes a "Compatibilty matrix" section > >>>> based > >>>> on the new data I mentioned above > >>>> - The "Releases" page now includes links to one page for each series > >>>> ("More on the 5.8 series") > >>>> - There is now one page for each series (see > >>>> http://staging.hibernate.org/search/releases/series/5.8/). This > page > >>>> includes: > >>>> - A short (one-line) summary of this series > >>>> - A reminder of the integration constraints for this series > >>>> - A section about the main changes in this release. I only wrote > >>>> something for the 5.8 series for now, and I basically > >>>> copy/pasted sections > >>>> from various blog posts. > >>>> - A list of all releases in this series. > >>>> > >>>> What I didn't do, but could make sense: > >>>> > >>>> - add a sub-menu element under "Releases" for each series > >>>> - link to the documentation for each of the latest releases from the > >>>> "Releases" page > >>>> - link to the latest documentation and to the migration guides from > >>>> each > >>>> series' page > >>>> > >>>> What do you all think? Emmanuel, would this address your concerns? > >>>> Steve, > >>>> would this be a good fit for ORM? > >>>> > >>>> Yoann Rodière > >>>> Hibernate NoORM Team > >>>> yoann(a)hibernate.org > >>>> > >>>> On 6 September 2017 at 17:16, Steve Ebersole <steve(a)hibernate.org&gt; > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> This is something I brought up ages ago wrt ORM. I wanted something > >>>>> > >>>>> (although ideally integrated with the "more version friendly" > >>>>> hibernate.org design) similar to what I did atm on the ORM GitHub > wiki. > >>>>> For example, for 5.2 we have: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> - https://github.com/hibernate/hibernate-orm/wiki/Roadmap5.2 > >>>>> - https://github.com/hibernate/hibernate-orm/wiki/Migration-Gu > >>>>> ide---5.2 > >>>>> - https://github.com/hibernate/hibernate-orm/wiki/ReleaseNotes5.2 > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> The format could be better and some of this information could be > >>>>> combined > >>>>> (release notes and migration guide e.g.). But bear in mind that this > >>>>> was > >>>>> just what I put together to illustrate what I was wanted to do, > >>>>> generally > >>>>> speaking - so its a bit "rough" > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 4:17 AM Sanne Grinovero <sanne(a)hibernate.org&gt; > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks for that Emmanuel. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I'll fix the one-liner describing the release, I believe we had > >>>>>> already noticed this in the past: they need to describe the whole > >>>>>> minor not the micro update. > >>>>>> The Search roadmap actually also needs a little re-touch, I'll > propose > >>>>>> a PR for that too. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Regarding past roadmaps: I don't like to clutter the roadmap page > with > >>>>>> the previous copies, especially as they should have a different > nature > >>>>>> of not being a plan but being a record of what was actually done. > >>>>>> Also, we did agree in past meetings to remove all the old ones. e.g. > >>>>>> we never ported the release notes for version 3.x and 4.x as back > then > >>>>>> we decided this was no place for that. Happy to revisit this > decision > >>>>>> but let's separate them: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> What about a "past releases" page at the same level of roadmap, and > >>>>>> linking to it both from the main Search menu and the roadmap? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> +1 for Yoann's proposal to re-introduce the compatibility matrix > >>>>>> (there was one ~6 years ago). I also had proposed to reintroduce it > >>>>>> more recently, and was not done on the grounds that it gets out of > >>>>>> date quickly. > >>>>>> Still users badly need it so unless someone has a better idea, let's > >>>>>> agree on trying to keep it up to date manually. Let's try structure > it > >>>>>> in such a way that it won't need to be updated for every single > >>>>>> release. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thanks, > >>>>>> Sanne > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On 6 September 2017 at 08:37, Yoann Rodiere <yoann(a)hibernate.org&gt; > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > Hey, > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > About Search, true, the information is somewhat hidden in many > blog > >>>>>> posts. > >>>>>> > I'm not sure the roadmap is the right place, though, since we > >>>>>> > probably > >>>>>> want > >>>>>> > the format to be different for past and future releases: > information > >>>>>> for > >>>>>> > past releases is typically more precise and more verbose, with > code > >>>>>> > examples and so on. See for instance this blog post: > >>>>>> http://in.relation.to/ > >>>>>> > 2017/06/13/hibernate-search-5-8-0-Beta3/ . I'm afraid the future > >>>>>> roadmap > >>>>>> > would be drowned in the past releases. > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > I was thinking about another problem: we don't have a > compatibility > >>>>>> matrix. > >>>>>> > We only have a few dependencies (mainly ORM and Lucene), but it's > >>>>>> really > >>>>>> > hard to know which versions of the dependencies to use with which > >>>>>> version > >>>>>> > of Search, and users frequently use the wrong versions. > >>>>>> > With that in mind, I would rather see a "Versions" page, with a > >>>>>> summary > >>>>>> at > >>>>>> > the top (including a one-liner for each minor and the compatibilty > >>>>>> matrix), > >>>>>> > and one section for each minor (with anchors, so that we can link > to > >>>>>> them > >>>>>> > from other pages such as the downloads). Or maybe even one page > for > >>>>>> the > >>>>>> > detail of each minor, if there's too much text. > >>>>>> > I think it would make sense to have all that information gathered > in > >>>>>> > a > >>>>>> > single place, because all of that is needed for users to pick the > >>>>>> version > >>>>>> > they want: they need to know the benefits of upgrading (features) > >>>>>> > but > >>>>>> also > >>>>>> > the constraints (compatibility matrix). > >>>>>> > Maybe I can give it a try at the end of the week? > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > Yoann Rodière > >>>>>> > Hibernate NoORM Team > >>>>>> > yoann(a)hibernate.org > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > On 6 September 2017 at 09:21, Emmanuel Bernard < > >>>>>> emmanuel(a)hibernate.org&gt; > >>>>>> > wrote: > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> >> Hey all, > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> I was trying to answer the following question, what is roughly > new > >>>>>> between > >>>>>> >> 5.6, 5.7 and 5.8 (minor releases)? > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> My first reflex was to go to http://hibernate.org/search/ > downloads/ > >>>>>> < > >>>>>> >> http://hibernate.org/search/downloads/> to read about the > onliner > >>>>>> per > >>>>>> >> release. Except it’s a onliner per micro release and “minor > >>>>>> adjustments” > >>>>>> >> for 5.6.3.Final gave me literally no info whatsoever. > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> My second reflex was to go to http://hibernate.org/search/ > roadmap/ > >>>>>> >> < > >>>>>> >> http://hibernate.org/search/roadmap/> to find a historical entry > >>>>>> about > >>>>>> >> older versions and the main changes in bullet points. No luck. It > >>>>>> only > >>>>>> >> talks about the future. > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> My third reflex was to go to > >>>>>> >> http://in.relation.to/hibernate-search/ > >>>>>> < > >>>>>> >> http://in.relation.to/hibernate-search/> I ended up giving up > >>>>>> >> midway > >>>>>> page > >>>>>> >> 2 of the list of blog entries. It’s a mix of simultaneous > parallel > >>>>>> releases > >>>>>> >> with what’s new since the last CR or the last micro kind of > reports > >>>>>> and > >>>>>> >> gave up in dismay at the energy I would have to spend to extract > >>>>>> what’s new > >>>>>> >> for a full minor release. > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> I did exaggerate a bit the third point but I did give up. We need > >>>>>> >> somewhere a summary page of what’s new per minor releases. I > think > >>>>>> the > >>>>>> >> roadmap page could be the host. > >>>>>> >> Likewise, we might need a oneliner entry in the download section > >>>>>> >> (per > >>>>>> >> release) that points to this minor release summary. > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> Thoughts? > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> Speaking of roadmap: > >>>>>> >> - HV roadmap is massively out of date > >>>>>> >> - OGM is lying a bit on the future but at least has the past > >>>>>> >> summary > >>>>>> I > >>>>>> was > >>>>>> >> talking about > >>>>>> >> - Search has a good future roadmap but no past > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> Emmanuek > >>>>>> >> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> >> hibernate-dev mailing list > >>>>>> >> hibernate-dev(a)lists.jboss.org > >>>>>> >> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev > >>>>>> > _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> > hibernate-dev mailing list > >>>>>> > hibernate-dev(a)lists.jboss.org > >>>>>> > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> hibernate-dev mailing list > >>>>>> hibernate-dev(a)lists.jboss.org > >>>>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > > >

On Wed 17-09-13 10:55, Sanne Grinovero wrote: I'm not sure two pages is really solving the problem. It looks like you don't want to make a choice. But I don't have a pro/con opinion. My real concern is since you will have two pages, what's the navigation logic? How do you reach each on of these pages? Just thinking out loud here but I think the one way to solve long standing Steve objective is indeed to have per series sections of the website (including download, documentation, migration guide) And a top nav for "latest/promoted" releases (like we have today really). How do you merge the two navigation wise is what I don't know. This is for later work anyways.

Yoann, First thanks for the work on this. I think it looks worlds better. A few minor things: 1. Not sure of the source for this, but can we fix these doc link for 5.2 from ` https://docs.jboss.org/hibernate/stable/orm/userguide/html_single/Hiberna... to `https://docs.jboss.org/hibernate/orm/5.2`? Also, why https? Not sure it matters, just found it odd 2. Much of the information on that ORM releases page is, in turn, version/series specific. Any reason why those pieces of information are not part of the series? Either in the synopsis on the releases page or on the specific series page, or both. Specifically 1. "Compatibility Matrix" - the fact that its a table based on series is a good indicator it is all series specific ;) 2. "Maven Repository" - I'd personally prefer to have this as part of the series info 3. I think the individual series pages are missing a key piece of information... the "synopsis" of that series. I guess partially this fits under "what's new" Other than these minor things I love it. Great job! P.S. another question is whether (and if so, how) to apply the same treatment to the Documentation info in terms of the nav links. On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 7:05 AM Yoann Rodiere <yoann(a)hibernate.org&gt; wrote:

Hi, Would anyone have something about putting the Compatibility matrix before the Series part in the page: http://staging.hibernate.org/ogm/releases/ ? Atm, we don't see the matrix at a quick glance (I totally missed it until Yoann told me it was there) and I think it's probably the first information you need when you want to download something. Typically, if you're stuck to Java 6 for whatever reasons, no need to take a look at the 5.2 serie. It's maybe a little less sexy but it would be more useful IMHO. -- Guillaume On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 2:55 PM, Vlad Mihalcea <mihalcea.vlad(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 9:03 PM, Emmanuel Bernard <emmanuel(a)hibernate.org&gt; wrote: OK. Let's agree to disagree :). We often have SO questions of people not using the right version. Not sure it would help to put the information more visible though. -- Guillaume

On 14 September 2017 at 13:34, Steve Ebersole <steve(a)hibernate.org&gt; wrote: Specifically about the `https` question: there's no longer any reason standing to avoid https, other than it being slightly more work to setup - in this case it's done by the jboss.org team so we can take advantage from it at no extra effort. There are several benefits in using it from the SEO perspective though so we should use and encourage it whenever possible, to make these URLs the canonical ones for the documentation. (and also because otherwise bots (and people) need to be thaught that this content is now available over https as well). Ideally we should set it up for our websites too. Thanks, Sanne

No answer? So I guess I can merge it whenever I want? :-) Yoann Rodière Hibernate NoORM Team yoann(a)hibernate.org On 19 September 2017 at 08:36, Yoann Rodiere <yoann(a)hibernate.org&gt; wrote:

I like it, looking forward to integration. *IF* you are willing to improve a minor point: I didn't expect the "Releases" menu to be expanded when not being in any of these sections. Related: I wouldn't highlight both the current release and the "Releases" label, the shading looks odd and misaligned. Thanks! Sanne On 21 September 2017 at 16:10, Yoann Rodiere <yoann(a)hibernate.org&gt; wrote:

After some chats and a night of sleep on this, I think we need to stop obsessing about guiding people into the choice among multiple minor versions: it's hard enough that they have to pick a project. We need to encourage people to use the latest versions and we need to send a clear, strong message about this, no middle ground fiddling with names and definitions We can give them a choice between using the latest stable vs the latest development, but beyond this we're giving too much choice. Yet I do believe we should make it "not-hard" for people looking for details of other recent versions; could we consider them all "archived" ? Some drop downs on key areas like the ones in ORM today would still be welcome to make it easy to find - but let's remove the version choice from the "primary navigation path". There are some exceptional cases coming to mind which would need some mitigation; for example the fact that OGM won't work with the latest Search and ORM releases! But there are better solutions than to pollute the website experience by making the matching versions too visible, for example bundle it with OGM, link to the right versions from the OGM pages, or have the modules eventually pull-in the required dependencies, etc... (technical details irrelevant in this context). Thanks, Sanne On 22 September 2017 at 12:21, Guillaume Smet <guillaume.smet(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

I think he is saying what I was saying... make the nav links point to the latest version, but with easy nav from there to list of all series/family/whatever On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 10:25 AM Yoann Rodiere <yoann(a)hibernate.org&gt; wrote:

All I wanted initially was to be able to get a description of what each series provided so that when I jump from my version to the latest, I can see what's going on. Then you guys wanted to expose the matrix of compatibilities as e.g. people do consume Search with a given version of ORM. With that being said, here is what I think are the series with value to users today: * Search: 5.8 (latest), 5.6 (ORM 5.0/5.1), maybe whatever the version in WF is * Validator: 6.0 (latest), maybe whatever the version in WF is * OGM: 5.2 (dev), 5.1 (stable) * ORM: 5.2, 5.1, maybe the WF version if it's not 5.1 As a user, I still need to be able to go to a given series page to understand what was done (see my initial use case). But they can be in a older series section in small vs big boxes. BTW tools has a Downloads link, not Releases. Emmanuel On Fri 17-09-22 17:03, Yoann Rodiere wrote:

On 26 September 2017 at 15:36, Emmanuel Bernard <emmanuel(a)hibernate.org&gt; wrote: +1 that's my preference Nothing to change right now, but we'll need to evolve a bit when we'll want to prune the series being shown in the main area right now. It starts to get crowded and WF having 5.5 (rather old) I want people to be able to find details about it yet not "push" the version. Say we want to prune 5.7 - not being in your above list - people will still want to be able to find it when upgrading from 5.6 -> 5.8 Thanks, Sanne

Ah, finally an objective measurement to force Sanne to release smaller but more often :D

On 28 September 2017 at 08:21, Guillaume Smet <guillaume.smet(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: +1 [same as I said above]

Do y'all really think it makes sense to have JPA versions in this ORM "compatibility matrix"? My concern is that it is more involved (as we then try to convey in the section below that matrix) than a cell in a matrix/table with just a version number. If we end up treating JPA compatibility differently (removing from table) then the table is just made up of "Java compatibility", which we can probably illustrate simpler than a single vertical row of versions. On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 6:37 AM Guillaume Smet <guillaume.smet(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

On 28 September 2017 at 13:30, Steve Ebersole <steve(a)hibernate.org&gt; wrote: I think it's useful. Try booting a recent ORM version with an out of date JPA api jar: you'll get really weird exceptions and it's hard to figure out what's wrong. https://forum.hibernate.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1043938 Hopefully in future having a single JPA API distribution (in terms of Maven coordinates) would make such issues a thing of the past, but it's going to take a while yet.

On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 3:53 PM, Steve Ebersole <steve(a)hibernate.org&gt; wrote: Yeah, the example of ORM is not the best one for this table. Here is how it looks for Search: http://hibernate.org/search/releases/ Not sure it's worth doing something specific for ORM and maintain another separate template. -- Guillaume

On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 4:26 PM, Sanne Grinovero <sanne(a)hibernate.org&gt; wrote: Well not really. I personally don't want to maintain specific templates for each project, and I'm pretty sure Yoann doesn't either. I don't think it's that annoying to have it. Definitely better than having to maintain special templates or special cases in the template. Please, let's keep it simple. -- Guillaume

Hi Sanne, IMHO, this is an orthogonal discussion to the problem Yoann is trying to solve. Yoann didn't change anything about which versions are advertised. What I'm saying is that, if when we start a move, we have 4 other discussions about 4 other things we want to change, we won't do a move anymore. Just to show you your point will generate more discussion and is not as easy as it seems: I tend to agree that we present too many versions but I think we have to think carefully about what we want to do about that (you're already talking about the OGM exceptions, but we will also have a Search exception when ORM 6 will be released as it will require some time for us to port Search to 6). What I was saying yesterday is that I don't think keeping Search 5.7 has value as people shouldn't use that version - there's no good reason for it. I'm more torn about 5.6 as people might find it useful if they are stuck on ORM 5.1 for whatever reason (WildFly, difficulty to upgrade...). So this is not an easy debate and I don't think we should block Yoann's work for this. Note that It can be quite frustrating when you invested time in something and you can never merge what you did because over the time we include other subjects in the discussion. Let's be more agile about it. We agreed it was a good change, let's merge it and iterate from there. -- Guillaume On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 4:49 PM, Sanne Grinovero <sanne(a)hibernate.org&gt; wrote:

Aaaand it's merged. I tried to clean up release YAML files as much as possible for every project, adding missing files as necessary. You may want to add some content to each project, most notably to the "what's new" section of each series, but also to the compatibility matrix of each series. I updated the survival guide with some information about the YAML files, and I'm available if you need help. Thanks for the feedback! Yoann Rodière Hibernate NoORM Team yoann(a)hibernate.org On 22 September 2017 at 23:59, Sanne Grinovero <sanne(a)hibernate.org&gt; wrote: