March 2007 - jboss-dev-forums - Jboss List Archives

[Design of JBoss ESB] - Re: Testsuite for MP1

by Kevin.Conner＠jboss.com

Bill, can you check with me before checking in so that we can coordinate any necessary changes to the CI systems. Thanks View the original post : http://www.jboss.com/index.html?module=bb&op=viewtopic&p=4029152#4029152 Reply to the post : http://www.jboss.com/index.html?module=bb&op=posting&mode=reply&p=4029152

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[Design of JBoss ESB] - Re: Embedded FTP Server and FTP Clients

by mark.little＠jboss.com

"kukeltje" wrote : backward compensation yes, but how to roll back a message already sent via smtp? or a file transported to a remote system wich already picked that up? or even webservices (I think it will take at least a year, maybe two before ws transactions et al is seriously used in a wide environment) That is also why jbpm has not implemented this in the latest versions (it was in 2.0 but left out in 3.x) | | Untill then and even after then I agree with Bill that it should mainly be corrected at the business level and for that you do not need a transactionmanager, but more like a bpel or jpdl engine... | BTW, if you want to continue this discussion let's take it to a different topic (maybe even the jBPM forum?) or email. View the original post : http://www.jboss.com/index.html?module=bb&op=viewtopic&p=4029151#4029151 Reply to the post : http://www.jboss.com/index.html?module=bb&op=posting&mode=reply&p=4029151

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[Design of JBoss ESB] - Re: Testsuite for MP1

by mark.little＠jboss.com

Test updates like this are fine I think. As you've pointed out, they make it a lot easier for us to run everything (unit and integration tests) out of the box without pre-configuring anything. I'd take that now, as it would save me time and effort. View the original post : http://www.jboss.com/index.html?module=bb&op=viewtopic&p=4029150#4029150 Reply to the post : http://www.jboss.com/index.html?module=bb&op=posting&mode=reply&p=4029150

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[Design of JBoss ESB] - Re: Embedded FTP Server and FTP Clients

by mark.little＠jboss.com

"bill.burke(a)jboss.com" wrote : So, do we want an Embedded FTP Server in MP1? | Do we want to update the testsuite to use the FTP Server? | I'd say so. View the original post : http://www.jboss.com/index.html?module=bb&op=viewtopic&p=4029149#4029149 Reply to the post : http://www.jboss.com/index.html?module=bb&op=posting&mode=reply&p=4029149

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[Design of JBoss ESB] - Re: Embedded FTP Server and FTP Clients

by mark.little＠jboss.com

You misunderstand. You need a reliable coordinator to record the compensations and trigger them when necessary. A rollback is a compensation that is triggered, either by the application or by the recovery subsystem. A forward compensation is just the same: the information about which compensation to trigger and when, needs to be durably recorded and replayed when/if necessary. Believe it or not, but failures during compensation do occur. As far as compensations are concerned, if you're doing forward compensation then they are often tied to the application or business logic and not generally applicable. Take a look at the OMG Additional Structuring Mechanisms for the OTS, or the Java Activity Service specifications for some examples of what I mean (although I'm fairly sure you understand). Some BPEL engines are implemented on these frameworks. What those frameworks do is generalise a coordinator (what you've called a transactionmanager) so that it can do forward or backward recovery. Although we have an implementation of these frameworks, ArjunaCore isn't it, but is similar. It allows for the structured relaxation of the ACID properties in "transaction" coordination as defined by Jim Gray in his original IBM technical report. (It was actually the basis of some of the work I mentioned above.) BTW, compensation transactions (including WS-BA) are being used today in some pretty important and mission critical environments. Compensations aren't new and many vertical sectors have been using them ad hoc for nearly 20 years. What they've been doing over the past 5 years is moving to the standards. View the original post : http://www.jboss.com/index.html?module=bb&op=viewtopic&p=4029148#4029148 Reply to the post : http://www.jboss.com/index.html?module=bb&op=posting&mode=reply&p=4029148

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[Design of JBoss ESB] - Testsuite for MP1

by bill.burke＠jboss.com

How far do you want me to go integrating the JBoss Test Harness with MP1? Should I migrate all the qa/junit tests, where appropriate, to use the new ESB Server? I asked this in another post, but should I incorporate the embedded FTP Server I did as well, so we can fully automate testing? I also believe I could embed Andy's email server as well pretty quickly. Since these embedded services are just for testing and to be able to run the samples out-of-the-box, does it really fall into the code freeze? View the original post : http://www.jboss.com/index.html?module=bb&op=viewtopic&p=4029147#4029147 Reply to the post : http://www.jboss.com/index.html?module=bb&op=posting&mode=reply&p=4029147

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[Design of JBoss ESB] - Re: Embedded FTP Server and FTP Clients

by bill.burke＠jboss.com

So, do we want an Embedded FTP Server in MP1? Do we want to update the testsuite to use the FTP Server? View the original post : http://www.jboss.com/index.html?module=bb&op=viewtopic&p=4029146#4029146 Reply to the post : http://www.jboss.com/index.html?module=bb&op=posting&mode=reply&p=4029146

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[Design of JBoss ESB] - Re: Embedded FTP Server and FTP Clients

by kukeltje

backward compensation yes, but how to roll back a message already sent via smtp? or a file transported to a remote system wich already picked that up? or even webservices (I think it will take at least a year, maybe two before ws transactions et al is seriously used in a wide environment) That is also why jbpm has not implemented this in the latest versions (it was in 2.0 but left out in 3.x) Untill then and even after then I agree with Bill that it should mainly be corrected at the business level and for that you do not need a transactionmanager, but more like a bpel or jpdl engine... View the original post : http://www.jboss.com/index.html?module=bb&op=viewtopic&p=4029144#4029144 Reply to the post : http://www.jboss.com/index.html?module=bb&op=posting&mode=reply&p=4029144

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[Design of JBoss ESB] - Re: Embedded FTP Server and FTP Clients

by mark.little＠jboss.com

Yes, but that doesn't mean you can't tie them into being driven by a coordinator. Afterall, rollback is a backward compensation. BTW, we can support this with ArjunaCore :-) View the original post : http://www.jboss.com/index.html?module=bb&op=viewtopic&p=4029143#4029143 Reply to the post : http://www.jboss.com/index.html?module=bb&op=posting&mode=reply&p=4029143

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[Design of JBoss ESB] - Re: Embedded FTP Server and FTP Clients

by bill.burke＠jboss.com

"mark.little(a)jboss.com" wrote : "bill.burke(a)jboss.com" wrote : Mark, this is what we've been arguing about privately over email. JBPM provides support for long-term flows, and because the flow definition/metadata can either be persisted or travel with the message, federation would be supported. | | | | I'm pretty sure we've established that this is a good thing for us to support on the ESB. | | anonymous wrote : | | In my mind, even compensating transactions could be covered in the process flow definition. You either rollback in a local transaction to your original save point in the message flow and start over, or you catch the problem and transition to the compensating part of the defined message flow. | | | | Until I see an implementation of a process engine that uses a transaction engine as its core for compensations, I'm not convinced that compensations are truly supported. Something like WS-BA (or one of the other dozen or so compensation transaction models) require durability, coordination and reliability characteristics that are often just ignored by process engines (both commercial and open source), leaving a lot up to the user. Wasn't thinking about crash and recovery. Still, don't compensations have to be more business process oriented usually anyways? Bill View the original post : http://www.jboss.com/index.html?module=bb&op=viewtopic&p=4029142#4029142 Reply to the post : http://www.jboss.com/index.html?module=bb&op=posting&mode=reply&p=4029142

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jboss-dev-forums March 2007