Brian Stansberry [http://community.jboss.org/people/bstansberry%40jboss.com] created the discussion "Re: separating deployers from other services?" To view the discussion, visit: http://community.jboss.org/message/562229#562229 -------------------------------------------------------------- https://jira.jboss.org/browse/MSC-21 https://jira.jboss.org/browse/MSC-21, which David wants to get done in the next week or so will probably have a big impact on how this gets solved. So any thinking about this needs to assume MSC-21 is in place. -------------------------------------------------------------- Reply to this message by going to Community [http://community.jboss.org/message/562229#562229] Start a new discussion in JBoss AS7 Development at Community [http://community.jboss.org/choose-container!input.jspa?contentType=1&...]

Brian Stansberry [http://community.jboss.org/people/bstansberry%40jboss.com] created the discussion "Re: separating deployers from other services?" To view the discussion, visit: http://community.jboss.org/message/562255#562255 -------------------------------------------------------------- An issue is you don't know that the deployment chain is complete until all the subsystems are started. The web service subsystem may inject a deployer into the deployer chain, but if you start doing deployments before that's done, that deployer may not get applied even though it should. -------------------------------------------------------------- Reply to this message by going to Community [http://community.jboss.org/message/562255#562255] Start a new discussion in JBoss AS7 Development at Community [http://community.jboss.org/choose-container!input.jspa?contentType=1&...]

Brian Stansberry [http://community.jboss.org/people/bstansberry%40jboss.com] created the discussion "Re: separating deployers from other services?" To view the discussion, visit: http://community.jboss.org/message/562933#562933 -------------------------------------------------------------- It took me a few looks over a few days to understand what this was about. Your comment above explains it just fine, but I didn't get it.   You're basically discriminating between deployers and other subsystem services so the deployment batch building phase can start without waiting for those other services. The *deployment batch building phase* only depends on the deployers, so waiting for things like web connectors to start before beginning that phase is wasteful. This makes sense to me as a general idea -- David, John, care to comment? Even if the entire server start gets redone and MSC-21 results in batching being eliminated, the idea of tracking when all deployers instead of when all subsystems are available, and then allowing deployments to proceed as soon as the deployers are done makes sense. How much start time improvement did this allow? What was your config -- web container plus a ROOT.war? I don't like the cast to ModelServiceActivatorContext. If we use this approach the param the subsystem activation API exposes should be ModelServiceActivatorContext (a better name would be good). All this stuff (existing code included) needs a lot of javadoc; I had to think way too hard to understand what was going on! -------------------------------------------------------------- Reply to this message by going to Community [http://community.jboss.org/message/562933#562933] Start a new discussion in JBoss AS7 Development at Community [http://community.jboss.org/choose-container!input.jspa?contentType=1&...]

Emanuel Muckenhuber [http://community.jboss.org/people/emuckenhuber] created the discussion "Re: separating deployers from other services?" To view the discussion, visit: http://community.jboss.org/message/564167#564167 -------------------------------------------------------------- Hmm, actually what i want to do in the end is to introduce some "phases" if you want to call it that way. Which could basically look like 1) separate deployers from other services 2) once all deployers are installed, we should be able to concurrently start the deployment chains for all deployments 3) once all chains are finished, we install all the services from the deployments 4) once deployment is complete we start the connectors So 1,2,3 that would be most likely be listeners and for connectors we might need to do it differently, since they would be registered in the subsystems. Where the important piece is that deployers don't inject services directly rather in the services they deploy. Since parsing most likely does not need a transaction manager or web container... I really would like to do something like that, so any feedback on that would be appreciated. -------------------------------------------------------------- Reply to this message by going to Community [http://community.jboss.org/message/564167#564167] Start a new discussion in JBoss AS7 Development at Community [http://community.jboss.org/choose-container!input.jspa?contentType=1&...]

Emanuel Muckenhuber [http://community.jboss.org/people/emuckenhuber] created the discussion "Re: separating deployers from other services?" To view the discussion, visit: http://community.jboss.org/message/564185#564185 -------------------------------------------------------------- They definitely can depend on other services (in the end it would be just a normal service), however they should not if it's not really needed. It's more about there is no need to wait until the web engine, transaction manager and hornetQ is started before starting with the deployment process. -------------------------------------------------------------- Reply to this message by going to Community [http://community.jboss.org/message/564185#564185] Start a new discussion in JBoss AS7 Development at Community [http://community.jboss.org/choose-container!input.jspa?contentType=1&...]

David Lloyd [http://community.jboss.org/people/david.lloyd%40jboss.com] created the discussion "Re: separating deployers from other services?" To view the discussion, visit: http://community.jboss.org/message/564368#564368 -------------------------------------------------------------- Yeah I'm stuck at an implementation roadblock with MSC-21.  In the meantime I'm working on changing XML parsing to create updates instead of creating the models, which is enough to divert the issue for a while... In principle, MSC-21 will allow us to install services in any order without batches, and they'll start up as soon as their dependencies are all resolved.  However there's a big gray area around optional dependencies.  I won't hijack this thread with that discussion though. -------------------------------------------------------------- Reply to this message by going to Community [http://community.jboss.org/message/564368#564368] Start a new discussion in JBoss AS7 Development at Community [http://community.jboss.org/choose-container!input.jspa?contentType=1&...]

David Lloyd [http://community.jboss.org/people/david.lloyd%40jboss.com] created the discussion "Re: separating deployers from other services?" To view the discussion, visit: http://community.jboss.org/message/564417#564417 -------------------------------------------------------------- Still need to figure out what SomeAppropriateContext is.  Also, does registerDeployers run concurrently with general activation?  If so, what is the mechanism by which a dependency is expressed on deployers - or should there not be one? -------------------------------------------------------------- Reply to this message by going to Community [http://community.jboss.org/message/564417#564417] Start a new discussion in JBoss AS7 Development at Community [http://community.jboss.org/choose-container!input.jspa?contentType=1&...]

David Lloyd [http://community.jboss.org/people/david.lloyd%40jboss.com] created the discussion "Re: separating deployers from other services?" To view the discussion, visit: http://community.jboss.org/message/564433#564433 -------------------------------------------------------------- I guess I'm not really sure.  If the deployer creation/registration is very lightweight (as it should be, since I can't imagine those things having much state if any at all), then we could have a single Deployer service which calls all subsystem registerDeployer methods on startup and it should be pretty fast (i.e. not much to be gained from making that particular part concurrent).  Then at runtime, adding/removing processors doesn't affect the runtime state of that service, so nothing gets removed unexpectedly. I can't think of a reason that the existence or registration of the deployment unit processors would need to depend on any particular service being +up+.  And the services they produce would, at most, require the service to +exist+ in the container.  Granted this would be much easier with MSC-21 but barring that, we could then require all subsystems to complete activation before processing deployments.  The problem comes in if the activation processes do stuff that takes a long time.  But really this shouldn't be the case - at activation time, they should be adding services to the container or a batch, and deployments which depend on those services should just use them in a dependency item; this should be a very fast operation.  This way deployments using a specific service just depend on that service.  Long running stuff should be services, not blocking operations. So to summarize, registerDeployers would just do initial registration of the processor (no computation or major tasks).  The applyUpdateBootAction (this is the method which runs at startup) would just do initialization of services (also no computation or major tasks). ?? -------------------------------------------------------------- Reply to this message by going to Community [http://community.jboss.org/message/564433#564433] Start a new discussion in JBoss AS7 Development at Community [http://community.jboss.org/choose-container!input.jspa?contentType=1&...]

Emanuel Muckenhuber [http://community.jboss.org/people/emuckenhuber] created the discussion "Re: separating deployers from other services?" To view the discussion, visit: http://community.jboss.org/message/564553#564553 -------------------------------------------------------------- Hmm, in the end if we use MSC to add deployers as a msc service - we need a listener anyway to wait until all of them are installed? Otherwise it would be just adding the constructed deployers without any injections. Where the latter would actually prevent people doing weird injections. However i'm not quite convinced that this makes much sense and deployers can be fully isolated from other subsystems. At least if you look at the way common EE injection is currently - where you would need something like a injection resolver (or similar) to set the correct dependencies before you install the services in a deployment. At least i would like to avoid passing "services" through the deployers attachment system. -------------------------------------------------------------- Reply to this message by going to Community [http://community.jboss.org/message/564553#564553] Start a new discussion in JBoss AS7 Development at Community [http://community.jboss.org/choose-container!input.jspa?contentType=1&...]

Emanuel Muckenhuber [http://community.jboss.org/people/emuckenhuber] created the discussion "Re: separating deployers from other services?" To view the discussion, visit: http://community.jboss.org/message/564744#564744 -------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, we definitely agree on not "adding broadly-scoped functionality". Where actually what i did, was likely the easiest/quickest way to implement what i wanted it to do - maybe i just shoudn't have attached that prototype though ;) As for the actual deployment processors - "just a simple transformation of data or mapping from data to built services, with all the logic being in the actual service" - is certainly all the deployers should do (beside setting up the deployment classloader). When mentioning common EE injection in the deployers i was referring to the resolution of @Ejb -> service dependency name, since this would be needed to create the proper service dependencies. So maybe the deployment framework should also define a formal contract for this kind of resolution?  The actual injection would be part of the service lifecycle -------------------------------------------------------------- Reply to this message by going to Community [http://community.jboss.org/message/564744#564744] Start a new discussion in JBoss AS7 Development at Community [http://community.jboss.org/choose-container!input.jspa?contentType=1&...]