1 p.m.
The Seam website just had its busiest month ever :-)
--
Gavin King
gavin.king(a)gmail.com
http://in.relation.to/Bloggers/Gavin
http://hibernate.org
http://seamframework.org
8:06 a.m.
That's great news, however, I want to bring up a related concern - the
forums (and, to a lesser extent, the rest of the seam site) are very slow.
Pages routinely take 2-5 seconds to load, which doesn't bode well for the
perception of the framework. I have heard comments like "why is the site so
slow? and it's written in seam?" (and myself said similar things when I was
first introduced to Seam)
From looking at the code on the site from the examples/wiki directory, it
looks like at least many sql queries seem to be optimized -- what else could
it be? I have explored around the code but without a good dataset that
represents live data, can't do much more. Is there a way to get a recent
data dump of the website DB (with all usernames/passwords/other user data
further hashed/obfuscated, of course).
If this is possible, some of us could take a stab at perhaps making the
forums faster. It'll only help with adoption/use of the forums.
Ashish Tonse
http://ashish.tonse.com
@atonse
On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 2:00 PM, Gavin King <gavin.king(a)gmail.com> wrote:
The Seam website just had its busiest month ever :-)
--
Gavin King
gavin.king(a)gmail.com
http://in.relation.to/Bloggers/Gavin
http://hibernate.org
http://seamframework.org
_______________________________________________
seam-dev mailing list
seam-dev(a)lists.jboss.org
https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/seam-dev
11:17 a.m.
Christian says he thinks that the problems are:
(1) the wikitext parser is slow
(2) it runs on a slow server in Europe
On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 6:06 AM, Ashish Tonse <ashish.tonse(a)gmail.com> wrote:
That's great news, however, I want to bring up a related
concern - the
forums (and, to a lesser extent, the rest of the seam site) are very slow.
Pages routinely take 2-5 seconds to load, which doesn't bode well for the
perception of the framework. I have heard comments like "why is the site so
slow? and it's written in seam?" (and myself said similar things when I was
first introduced to Seam)
From looking at the code on the site from the examples/wiki directory, it
looks like at least many sql queries seem to be optimized -- what else could
it be? I have explored around the code but without a good dataset that
represents live data, can't do much more. Is there a way to get a recent
data dump of the website DB (with all usernames/passwords/other user data
further hashed/obfuscated, of course).
If this is possible, some of us could take a stab at perhaps making the
forums faster. It'll only help with adoption/use of the forums.
Ashish Tonse
http://ashish.tonse.com
@atonse
On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 2:00 PM, Gavin King <gavin.king(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The Seam website just had its busiest month ever :-)
>
> --
> Gavin King
> gavin.king(a)gmail.com
> http://in.relation.to/Bloggers/Gavin
> http://hibernate.org
> http://seamframework.org
> _______________________________________________
> seam-dev mailing list
> seam-dev(a)lists.jboss.org
> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/seam-dev
--
Gavin King
gavin.king(a)gmail.com
http://in.relation.to/Bloggers/Gavin
http://hibernate.org
http://seamframework.org
12:22 p.m.
New subject: Seam website optimizations
On Jun 01, 2009, at 18:17 , Gavin King wrote:
(1) the wikitext parser is slow
Which is why a forum thread with 50 replies takes a while to render.
It's not detectable on a page with just a few comments/replies. We are
caching what can be cached. Maybe that can be optimized further but
I'm 95% sure it can't be done without major changes. As extremely long
discussion threads are somewhat rare this is not a primary concern
right now.
(2) it runs on a slow server in Europe
The machine is fast but the connection to !EU countries is probably
not great. There is not much load on the server. Regular pages all
render in less than 2 seconds from warm browser cache - I don't care
about cold cache. For simple pages with just plain wiki text I'm
seeing around 600ms. Keep in mind that I have a good connection to the
server's location. If you are not in central EU you probably won't. No
need to post numbers, we know it's a problem.
There are three things that can be done and that would have a
measurable benefit:
- Move the service to US so it's slow for EU instead, already work in
progress.
- Conditional GET for SeamResourceServlet stuff, there is a JIRA issue
about it. With this change we could get a plain basic page down to
400ms from 600ms.
- Further optimize the forum list overview SQL query which is the only
really slow query. Result is in fragment cache though, it's only
executed when a new forum posting is made. This is an interesting
nested join problem and if you really know the MySQL or PostgreSQL
optimizer, have a go at it.
I need to repeat: The site itself, unless you run into a not-cached
result on the forum overview every 10 minutes, is not slow at all. For
most of you it's a connection/hops issue.
The conditional GET for SeamResourceServlet however is something that
we should implement anyway as it affects all Seam projects. So if
anyone wants to look at that, feel free and try it on the wiki code
base.
(P.S. Yes, even 400ms for a simple page is too much. It's not Seam's
fault. The code executes quite a few SQL statements for a simple page
view. Why it does that is complex, it's related to the nested set data
schema and the required entity inheritance model. It has already been
optimized quite a bit. Unfortunately not much of the power that comes
with the nested set strategy has been used so far and I probably
wouldn't combine Java inheritance + ORM + nested set in a future
project. Changing that now would mean rewriting large amounts of code,
migrating the data, or even switching to a non-OSS DMBS with a working
explode() operator. None of these options are attractive. OTOH, if you
have the time...)
12:51 p.m.
New subject: Seam website optimizations
Hi Christian,
I'm in Europe and the website is perceived slow, I am sure you're
right about the load and optimized code, but if I run the "YSlow"
firefox plugin it gives lots of good tips
you could apply to make it faster.
The website is behaving as "slow" because of the many resources which
are loaded per page; most browsers won't open more than 2 http
connections so all resources
are loaded in sequence: one bu one thorough all the hops; Using the
plugin I can see that many resources are not properly cached by the
browser because of wrong headers.
Other tips YSlow is giving are about missing compression on
javascripts, javascripts which could be moved to the bottom,moving
static rerources to "cookie-less" subdomains.
I'd recommend you to give it a try, I used it to speedup several Seam
applications: the most notable improvement is usually to fix the
headers from the richfaces generated javascript
when you can be sure it's not going to change, that will reduce the
amount of network roundtrips and the page will feel as loader much
faster.
Sanne
2009/6/1 Christian Bauer <christian.bauer(a)gmail.com>:
On Jun 01, 2009, at 18:17 , Gavin King wrote:
> (1) the wikitext parser is slow
Which is why a forum thread with 50 replies takes a while to render. It's
not detectable on a page with just a few comments/replies. We are caching
what can be cached. Maybe that can be optimized further but I'm 95% sure it
can't be done without major changes. As extremely long discussion threads
are somewhat rare this is not a primary concern right now.
> (2) it runs on a slow server in Europe
The machine is fast but the connection to !EU countries is probably not
great. There is not much load on the server. Regular pages all render in
less than 2 seconds from warm browser cache - I don't care about cold cache.
For simple pages with just plain wiki text I'm seeing around 600ms. Keep in
mind that I have a good connection to the server's location. If you are not
in central EU you probably won't. No need to post numbers, we know it's a
problem.
There are three things that can be done and that would have a measurable
benefit:
- Move the service to US so it's slow for EU instead, already work in
progress.
- Conditional GET for SeamResourceServlet stuff, there is a JIRA issue about
it. With this change we could get a plain basic page down to 400ms from
600ms.
- Further optimize the forum list overview SQL query which is the only
really slow query. Result is in fragment cache though, it's only executed
when a new forum posting is made. This is an interesting nested join problem
and if you really know the MySQL or PostgreSQL optimizer, have a go at it.
I need to repeat: The site itself, unless you run into a not-cached result
on the forum overview every 10 minutes, is not slow at all. For most of you
it's a connection/hops issue.
The conditional GET for SeamResourceServlet however is something that we
should implement anyway as it affects all Seam projects. So if anyone wants
to look at that, feel free and try it on the wiki code base.
(P.S. Yes, even 400ms for a simple page is too much. It's not Seam's fault.
The code executes quite a few SQL statements for a simple page view. Why it
does that is complex, it's related to the nested set data schema and the
required entity inheritance model. It has already been optimized quite a
bit. Unfortunately not much of the power that comes with the nested set
strategy has been used so far and I probably wouldn't combine Java
inheritance + ORM + nested set in a future project. Changing that now would
mean rewriting large amounts of code, migrating the data, or even switching
to a non-OSS DMBS with a working explode() operator. None of these options
are attractive. OTOH, if you have the time...)
_______________________________________________
seam-dev mailing list
seam-dev(a)lists.jboss.org
https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/seam-dev
3:03 p.m.
New subject: Seam website optimizations
On Jun 01, 2009, at 19:51 , Sanne Grinovero wrote:
right about the load and optimized code, but if I run the
"YSlow"
I actually first had a paragraph in my e-mail saying "Please, no Yahoo
website tips". :) I'm aware of all of this stuff and of course we've
done already whatever makes sense and was easily doable. The website
does NOT have many resources that are loaded with a warm cache. In
fact, only the SeamResourceServlet files are loaded over and over
again (remote.js particularly bad). Which is why we need conditional
GET function for it.
5:24 p.m.
New subject: Seam website optimizations
On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 4:03 PM, Christian Bauer
<christian.bauer(a)gmail.com>wrote:
On Jun 01, 2009, at 19:51 , Sanne Grinovero wrote:
right about the load and optimized code, but if I run the "YSlow"
>
I actually first had a paragraph in my e-mail saying "Please, no Yahoo
website tips". :) I'm aware of all of this stuff and of course we've done
already whatever makes sense and was easily doable. The website does NOT
have many resources that are loaded with a warm cache. In fact, only the
SeamResourceServlet files are loaded over and over again (remote.js
particularly bad). Which is why we need conditional GET function for it.
I have no doubt you have put significant effort into understanding the
performance of the website. But there is a new development in the area of
performance. Google recently released the Page Speed plugin for Firebug,
which I think it's worth pointing at the site to see if there are any new
optimizations we can discover. Also, it appears that RichFaces is very
guilty in terms of missing the cache and should certainly be discussed at
the upcoming meeting in Brno.
-Dan
--
Dan Allen
Senior Software Engineer, Red Hat | Author of Seam in Action
http://mojavelinux.com
http://mojavelinux.com/seaminaction
http://in.relation.to/Bloggers/Dan
NOTE: While I make a strong effort to keep up with my email on a daily
basis, personal or other work matters can sometimes keep me away
from my email. If you contact me, but don't hear back for more than a week,
it is very likely that I am excessively backlogged or the message was
caught in the spam filters. Please don't hesitate to resend a message if
you feel that it did not reach my attention.
5:38 p.m.
New subject: Seam website optimizations
On Jun 10, 2009, at 00:24 , Dan Allen wrote:
I have no doubt you have put significant effort into understanding
the performance of the website. But there is a new development in
the area of performance. Google recently released the Page Speed
plugin for Firebug, which I think it's worth pointing at the site to
see if there are any new optimizations we can discover. Also, it
appears that RichFaces is very guilty in terms of missing the cache
and should certainly be discussed at the upcoming meeting in Brno.
We are way beyond running tools to find problems, we know what the
(fixable) issues are:
Richfaces is bad with a cold browser cache as it's delivering its JS
and CSS content in dozens of requests instead of bundling the data in
a few requests. This is obviously going to be on the table. However,
with a warm browser cache it does conditional GET and cache control
headers just fine and data is not downloaded again. Simplified: Yes,
you can optimize the first visit to a page but any subsequent visit is
not executing any requests and using the cached JS and CSS. The only
thing that needs to be done is bundling up the resources better. As we
are not using Richfaces components on sfwk.org on regular pages, this
doesn't affect the website much.
The Seam resource servlet does not do conditional GET and cache
control headers. That is bad for people using @WebRemote, as this JS
is downloaded on every page request, over and over. Also, an
application like the wiki that uses the Seam resource servlet
extensively for delivering plugin CSS/JS/IMGs is suffering from that.
I've mentioned this before on this thread and there is a JIRA issue.
If someone wants to work on it, contact me so we can coordinate. This
has implications for REST integration as well.
(Yes, Page Speed is great because it analyses some very obscure
possible improvements. However, none of them would have any real
impact compared to the two issues above.)
5:53 p.m.
New subject: Seam website optimizations
The Seam resource servlet does not do conditional GET and cache control
headers. That is bad for people using @WebRemote, as this JS is downloaded
on every page request, over and over. Also, an application like the wiki
that uses the Seam resource servlet extensively for delivering plugin
CSS/JS/IMGs is suffering from that. I've mentioned this before on this
thread and there is a JIRA issue. If someone wants to work on it, contact me
so we can coordinate. This has implications for REST integration as well.
Okay, for all of you out there who really want to see an improvement in
sfwk.org (and Seam in general), here is your chance to take action. If no
one has time to get to it, I might dedicate time to this issue in the near
future.
-Dan
--
Dan Allen
Senior Software Engineer, Red Hat | Author of Seam in Action
http://mojavelinux.com
http://mojavelinux.com/seaminaction
http://in.relation.to/Bloggers/Dan
NOTE: While I make a strong effort to keep up with my email on a daily
basis, personal or other work matters can sometimes keep me away
from my email. If you contact me, but don't hear back for more than a week,
it is very likely that I am excessively backlogged or the message was
caught in the spam filters. Please don't hesitate to resend a message if
you feel that it did not reach my attention.
7:08 p.m.
New subject: Seam website optimizations
Richfaces is bad with a cold browser cache as it's delivering its
JS and
CSS content in dozens of requests instead of bundling the data in a few
requests. This is obviously going to be on the table. However, with a warm
browser cache it does conditional GET and cache control headers just fine
and data is not downloaded again. Simplified: Yes, you can optimize the
first visit to a page but any subsequent visit is not executing any requests
and using the cached JS and CSS. The only thing that needs to be done is
bundling up the resources better. As we are not using Richfaces components
on sfwk.org on regular pages, this doesn't affect the website much.
Initial request performance is important too and is an area the RichFaces
team is going to investigate for 4.0. How to bundle not only the static
resources, but also the dynamic resources into as few requests as possible.
.....
(Yes, Page Speed is great because it analyses some very obscure possible
improvements. However, none of them would have any real impact compared to
the two issues above.)
I think that page speed is good at visualizing offenders and pointing the
way, but it is like a bird dog. It shows you where the meal is, but does
not get it on the plate ;-)
_______________________________________________
seam-dev mailing list
seam-dev(a)lists.jboss.org
https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/seam-dev
--
blog: http://in.relation.to/Bloggers/Jay
2:26 p.m.
New subject: Seam website optimizations
The machine is fast but the connection to !EU countries is probably
not
great. There is not much load on the server. Regular pages all render in
less than 2 seconds from warm browser cache - I don't care about cold cache.
For simple pages with just plain wiki text I'm seeing around 600ms. Keep in
mind that I have a good connection to the server's location. If you are not
in central EU you probably won't. No need to post numbers, we know it's a
problem.
I know the my stats are not helpful but out of interest, I'm 12 hops
away and have ~100ms ping times but I still manage to
spend ~4-5 seconds to load a thread with 4-5 replies
---
Nik
3:06 p.m.
New subject: Seam website optimizations
On Jun 01, 2009, at 21:26 , Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
I know the my stats are not helpful but out of interest, I'm 12
hops
away and have ~100ms ping times but I still manage to
spend ~4-5 seconds to load a thread with 4-5 replies
1. That's not a good RTT if you have anything better than an analog
modem, it should be more like 25 ms.
2. RTT is not throughput.
3. We know. ;)
12:28 p.m.
I would just like to reinforce the interest in performance tuning on the
site.
I find it to be quite slow as well. Although, I've experienced great
success with Seam, it makes it harder to sell Seam to my peers because their
first experience with the framework is that the web site which Seam is
running on (seamframework.org) is slow.
I'm sure it won't surprise you that the web application we did use Seam with
was not slow at all. It performed very well.
- steve roy
On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 12:17 PM, Gavin King <gavin.king(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Christian says he thinks that the problems are:
(1) the wikitext parser is slow
(2) it runs on a slow server in Europe
On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 6:06 AM, Ashish Tonse <ashish.tonse(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> That's great news, however, I want to bring up a related concern - the
> forums (and, to a lesser extent, the rest of the seam site) are very
slow.
> Pages routinely take 2-5 seconds to load, which doesn't bode well for the
> perception of the framework. I have heard comments like "why is the site
so
> slow? and it's written in seam?" (and myself said similar things when I
was
> first introduced to Seam)
> From looking at the code on the site from the examples/wiki directory,
it
> looks like at least many sql queries seem to be optimized -- what else
could
> it be? I have explored around the code but without a good dataset that
> represents live data, can't do much more. Is there a way to get a recent
> data dump of the website DB (with all usernames/passwords/other user data
> further hashed/obfuscated, of course).
> If this is possible, some of us could take a stab at perhaps making the
> forums faster. It'll only help with adoption/use of the forums.
> Ashish Tonse
> http://ashish.tonse.com
> @atonse
> On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 2:00 PM, Gavin King <gavin.king(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
>>
>> The Seam website just had its busiest month ever :-)
>>
>> --
>> Gavin King
>> gavin.king(a)gmail.com
>> http://in.relation.to/Bloggers/Gavin
>> http://hibernate.org
>> http://seamframework.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> seam-dev mailing list
>> seam-dev(a)lists.jboss.org
>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/seam-dev
>
>
--
Gavin King
gavin.king(a)gmail.com
http://in.relation.to/Bloggers/Gavin
http://hibernate.org
http://seamframework.org
_______________________________________________
seam-dev mailing list
seam-dev(a)lists.jboss.org
https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/seam-dev
11:43 p.m.
I found that the site runs ok (although I'm in the UK).
I would make the suggestion that the forums are completely sorted as
at the moment they are not great... Namely searching is not very good
(especially if you are searching for phrases), jboss themselves seem
to have quite a good looking forum module for jboss portal?
I think a mailing list for seam users may be a good option as well,
sometimes it's just easier to send an email off to a user group
mailing list and get an answer quickly.
On 1 Jun 2009, at 17:17, Gavin King wrote:
Christian says he thinks that the problems are:
(1) the wikitext parser is slow
(2) it runs on a slow server in Europe
On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 6:06 AM, Ashish Tonse
<ashish.tonse(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> That's great news, however, I want to bring up a related concern
> - the
> forums (and, to a lesser extent, the rest of the seam site) are
> very slow.
> Pages routinely take 2-5 seconds to load, which doesn't bode well
> for the
> perception of the framework. I have heard comments like "why is the
> site so
> slow? and it's written in seam?" (and myself said similar things
> when I was
> first introduced to Seam)
> From looking at the code on the site from the examples/wiki
> directory, it
> looks like at least many sql queries seem to be optimized -- what
> else could
> it be? I have explored around the code but without a good dataset
> that
> represents live data, can't do much more. Is there a way to get a
> recent
> data dump of the website DB (with all usernames/passwords/other
> user data
> further hashed/obfuscated, of course).
> If this is possible, some of us could take a stab at perhaps
> making the
> forums faster. It'll only help with adoption/use of the forums.
> Ashish Tonse
> http://ashish.tonse.com
> @atonse
> On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 2:00 PM, Gavin King <gavin.king(a)gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> The Seam website just had its busiest month ever :-)
>>
>> --
>> Gavin King
>> gavin.king(a)gmail.com
>> http://in.relation.to/Bloggers/Gavin
>> http://hibernate.org
>> http://seamframework.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> seam-dev mailing list
>> seam-dev(a)lists.jboss.org
>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/seam-dev
>
>
--
Gavin King
gavin.king(a)gmail.com
http://in.relation.to/Bloggers/Gavin
http://hibernate.org
http://seamframework.org
_______________________________________________
seam-dev mailing list
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5645
days inactive
5655
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13 comments
9 participants
participants (9)
-
Ashish Tonse -
Christian Bauer -
Dan Allen -
Gavin King -
Ian Michell -
Jay Balunas -
Nicklas Karlsson -
Sanne Grinovero -
Steve Roy