On 03/23/2010 12:08 PM, Gavin King wrote:
Look, it's clear that we needed to migrate away from the old
infrastructure, which was on old PHP codebase abandoned
several years ago, and featured a lot of the same problems which annoy
me about the new site.
But I think that it was a mistake to use the jboss.org
instead of Seam Wiki, and I think that at the very least the switch
was flipped on the new site well before it was ready and had been
through a proper quality review. Here's a list of issues with the new
Is the new site "perfect"? No of course not.
However, I invited the needed people to review it and none did. I
cannot jump through the internet and make people care man. I will say
that launching was a great way to get people to care, huh?
But to claim that it should not have been moved to what you call a shit
platform is retarded imo because it is moving from a shit platform. And
even worse, at the time the old site was a shit platform that crashed
regularly (we are required to have a total ghetto script in the
background that monitors the site and if it becomes unresponsive restart
the sevices). Unfortunately JBoss.org
is having problems too ever since
the move, but in my defense they did not have the history of these
issues prior to the move that the old hibernate.org
The only real question here is whether moving to seam based solution
would have been "better". Well lets see... Who would have done this
migration? You and I and Christian and other folks sat in coffee shop
in Atlanta nearly 3 years ago and talked about moving hibernate.org
seamframework. 3 years! So obviously this was not a priority. For me
to do it (which you must admit is how this played out) I had to decide
between having help (from the jboss community team) or doing it all
myself (apparently) to migrate it to this esoteric seam based site. I
don't have the time. Period.
* Navigation is much more complex.
I count five, even six different menus on each page, two of which
contain pulldowns on some (but not all) menu items. These menus
interact in strange and unintuitive ways. For example, it's totally
non-obvious that the "Documentation" link takes you somewhere
different, depending upon which subproject you happen to have
selected. It's incredibly non-obvious how you get back to the main
"Hibernate" frontpage once you have clicked on a subproject.
At various places in the site, for example, as soon as you navigate to
the wiki, you simply get lost in jboss.org
, and the menu bar no longer
takes you back to hibernate.org
! This is unprofessional, and I'm
amazed, after all the assurances that porting to the jboss.org
infrastructure would not affect the ability for the site to maintain
its own identity, that we have these kinds of basic problems.
These problems seem to be the direct result of re-using what already
existed in jboss.org
At the time the site went live, there were a bunch of broken links,
though these now seem to be fixed. Also, users are complaining that
bookmarked links to content on the old site are now broken. These may
be just teething problems.
Your issue with the nav is consistency afaict. Ok,
perhaps. Yet you
argue about jboss.org
constraining you. You cannot have it both ways..
I am unaware of links not working when launched. Someone mentioned nav
links not working, but we have not touched those since launch. So not
sure what these were about.
I set up URL remaps of what I deemed likely-bookmarked content. Did I
miss some? Probably. For sure I missed the migration page. However, I
am not going to migrate every single wiki from the old site and set up
remaps of each and every one of these URLs. Aint gonna happen.
Yes the disjunction between projects in magnolia and sbs is not ideal.
I wish there were a stronger tie between them both visually and inter-nav.
* The site is uglier than the old site, and has lost its identity.
This is an aesthetic judgement, obviously, and perhaps not everyone
will agree. But after everyone has been assuring me for ages that *of
course* migrating to the jboss.org
infrastructure would not affect our
ability to maintain our existing look/feel and identity, I'm extremely
surprised to find that the look and feel of the old hibernate page has
been borgified and now has a much blander and less distinctive
Well I disagree. I find the magnolia pages in particular
have a *much
much much much much much* better feel than the old site (the subprojects
stuff on the rhs aside). I am still working through the SBS stuff.
In particular, the wiki pages are just plain ugly, and don't look
plain web pages. Just try compare a page from seamframework.org
page from the hibernate.org
wiki side by side. One is beautiful, the
other is vomit.
First I am not happy with the LnF with the new wiki either. But
need to look at this in 2 respects:
1) This SBS is more than just a wiki. Its a collaborative system. We
have not yet migrated the forums over so a huge part of that
collaboration is missing, granted. SBS has a good tagging system (based
on my experiece with the blog software anyway we do not; is that the
same used for tagging in seam wiki?) SBS has a good rating system to
help bubble up useful content. In SBS I can set up teams and groups and
friends. In SBS I have the usual notification mechanisms (you like RSS,
cool, SBS has that too; but it also has email notifications which some
people prefer and which the seam site does not offer).
2) You are comparing apples and oranges when you compare the existing
wiki to seamframework.org
. Dude I have zero (nada, nein,
nyet) resources to throw at administering and maintaining this stuff.
And about the same to do a migration. So lets compare this validly:
php versus jboss.org
* Login is screwed up.
I'm annoyed that my old hibernate.org
credentials don't work. I'm even
more annoyed that logging in takes two clicks, and sends me to some
page from which I have no chance to navigate back to the
page I was looking at (without using the back button).
This is just unprofessional.
Again, this seems to be the result of using the jboss.org
unaware as I stay logged in to jboss.org
. Yes that's not cool.
* Inconsistent look and feel across the website, wiki and forums.
Unlike in Seam Wiki, the wiki and forum each have their own special
look and feel. The main pages of the site don't appear to be wiki
pages at all, which means that I have 3 different ways of authoring
and managing content depending upon where I am in the site. This is
just crappy, folks! I did not even find *any* way to edit the main
website pages via my web browser.
Again something that is *your* opinion. I
actually hated that the old
site made no distinction between community content and "project pages".
The effect is that you can never know when you are on a page whether
this is information maintained by the project team or some potentially
off the wall post by some noob. Just like your comment about community
members, not all content is equal.
* The search box takes me to Google.
Perhaps I'm missing some "trick", but the search box does not seem to
search the site at all. It seems to just take me straight to Google,
and return me results from the whole internet.
Dunno. Have not looked at that.
Its also strange that there are 2
These are just the things I noticed in a cursory inspection of the site.
Now, perhaps some of these problems are fixable while remaining on the
infrastructure. But seamframework.org
does not have ANY of
these problems. And hibernate.org
would not have these problems if we
would have used Seam Wiki, which was my recommendation at the time.
Yep, and again
it was your recommendation 3 (!) years ago.