For those who want to see what a mess this would be, go check out the new, broken, hibernate.

Gavin, I know you have strong feelings about this, but you can't judge the site based on one botched migration. (I also missed the discussion you're referring to) I think Dan speaks for the community as a whole, and I have to agree with him. Seamframework.org has a lot of information in it, but finding things on it when I needed something was like pulling teeth. It needs to get better, otherwise it's another barrier to adoption and another barrier in building a stronger community. Please take into account that what may be a good option is to leave the current site as is and move anything Seam 3 and Weld related to SBS. Better yet start from scratch and do it right, since we have an unprecedented opportunity to do so right now. There is already much of the older forums migrated into SBS anyway. Another point is that the dev team is in a business of developing a next-gen framework/programming model and fostering the community around it and not in a business of building community software. Jive has years of headway on this and they got a great product, which is free for this community. So my vote is +1 for starting a Seam 3 and Weld/CDI projects on community.jboss.org. Thanks, Piotr On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 4:04 PM, Gavin King <gavin.king(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > > On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 4:04 PM, Gavin King <gavin.king(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > > > For those who want to see what a mess this would be, go check out the > > new, broken, hibernate. > > hibernate.org > > -- > Gavin King > gavin.king(a)gmail.com > http://in.relation.to/Bloggers/Gavin > http://hibernate.org > http://seamframework.org > _______________________________________________ > seam-dev mailing list > seam-dev(a)lists.jboss.org > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/seam-dev

Gavin, I know you have strong feelings about this, but you can't judge the site based on one botched migration. (I also missed the discussion you're referring to) I think Dan speaks for the community as a whole, and I have to agree with him. Seamframework.org has a lot of information in it, but finding things on it when I needed something was like pulling teeth. It needs to get better, otherwise it's another barrier to adoption and another barrier in building a stronger community. Please take into account that what may be a good option is to leave the current site as is and move anything Seam 3 and Weld related to SBS. Better yet start from scratch and do it right, since we have an unprecedented opportunity to do so right now. There is already much of the older forums migrated into SBS anyway. Another point is that the dev team is in a business of developing a next-gen framework/programming model and fostering the community around it and not in a business of building community software. Jive has years of headway on this and they got a great product, which is free for this community. So my vote is +1 for starting a Seam 3 and Weld/CDI projects on community.jboss.org. Thanks, Piotr On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 4:04 PM, Gavin King <gavin.king(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > > On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 4:04 PM, Gavin King <gavin.king(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > > > For those who want to see what a mess this would be, go check out the > > new, broken, hibernate. > > hibernate.org > > -- > Gavin King > gavin.king(a)gmail.com > http://in.relation.to/Bloggers/Gavin > http://hibernate.org > http://seamframework.org > _______________________________________________ > seam-dev mailing list > seam-dev(a)lists.jboss.org > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/seam-dev

On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 4:43 PM, Piotr Steininger <piotr.steininger(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > my point is that the current infrastructure is ineffective and inadequate. If we are building > the best damn framework then let's use the best damn tools to assist us with it. OK, but my argument is that the infrastructure you're proposing to replace it with is even less adequate and is missing features that I consider critical to community building.. -- Gavin King gavin.king(a)gmail.com http://in.relation.to/Bloggers/Gavin http://hibernate.org http://seamframework.org

OK, fair enough, so off the top of my head, here's a list of requirements that I think will be difficult to support on the jboss.org platform. (1) consistent look, feel, and navigation across website and forums. Since the jboss.org CMS and forums are totally different software packages, having a consistent look/feel is going to be very difficult and requires the maintenance of two different sets of templates ... with seam wiki we get that for free. See hibernate.org for an example of what it should *not* look like. (2) a (consistent) grammar-based wiki text content format for the website and forums. The jboss.org forums use bbcode, which is much less nice than seam text, and, since it is not based on a grammar, cannot detect errors and instead goes off the rails and renders rubbish. Seam text tells you when your text is not well-formed and makes you fix the error. The jboss.org CMS uses mainly HTML, which is a nightmare format for writing and maintaining content. Apparently there is some suggestion that it might be able to support a seam text plugin, but that still only solves half the problem. (2.5) Syntax highlighting for code samples. (3) Live preview in the content editor. This saves me so much time it's ridiculous. Seam wiki not only renders a perfect preview of the content I'm editing, it also tells me exactly where I have any non-well-formed text. (4) Atom or RSS feeds, mainly for the forums, but also useful in some other places. (5) Login with one click instead of 3 (duh). (6) Easy to-use online document history, diffs and rollback (the jboss.org CMS may support this, I'm not sure). (7) An infrastructure which, unlike jboss.org, does not have a history of being regularly unavailable or down for maintenance, or in the process of migration to a new platform. (For example, right now, I can't log in on jboss.org.) In addition to this list of things I came up with without thinking very hard, we can add all the problems and limitations we're going to stumble upon when we actually try using the jboss.org platforms. And all the nice things about seamframework.org that we don't really appreciate until they're not there. _______________________________________________ seam-dev mailing list seam-dev(a)lists.jboss.org https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/seam-dev

I can personally submit my frustration as a new module lead - seamframework.org is not enough to meet my needs in: Engaging the community - promoting the project.

Staying aware of what the community is doing, asking for, struggling with, talking about. I'm cut out completely on seamframework.org. I can't get email notifications,

I can't paste links to replies, other threads on the site itself, or URLs with query=parameters (without using the  plain text mode which is just terrible.)

Providing logically organized, clear, and navigable information. How can I establish the expectations and guidelines for development on these modules when I can't put that on a site that isn't confused with Seam 2 already?

These are just a few of the issues I've encountered - aside from the fact that the site is frequently down and is always semi-responsive (5-15s per request). It's struggling to keep up with our needs.

Hi Guys, Honestly, either way this goes, I think that any changes on this should wait until Pete returns from vacation. This is a major change for the project and one that the project lead needs to be part of. I'm not aware of all the conversations related to this, so won't comment on the choices. Pete will be back the first week in April, and since I don't think there is any critical need to make the move I have a suggestion.

If you need new wiki pages, create them in the sfwk.org wiki. If you want keep them separate from other wiki pages ( tags, naming, links, whatever ) and self contained. This way no one will be stopped from doing what they need to do, and either way the choice goes you will already have a head start. The Seam 3 information does need updating, as I can attest with reviewing the current builds and pages, but lets start with this approach, and then work this out as a team when Pete returns. My $.05,

The project lead apparently has no say b/c this open issue has apparently already been decided and finalized single-handedly by GKing, no? The community (the people who use the forums the most) has no say. One out of hundreds decides. A dictatorship in the open-source community. I do recall about a year or so ago that the original hibernate.org was unavailable for a week... And the performance of sfwk.org in North America at least is typically abysmal... No edits. No edits. No edits. Loving it. I can't edit a damn post but I can on almost every other forum. A winner! Congratulations, we have a winner! A winner that lost years ago. Beat it down... On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 3:00 PM, Dan Allen <dan.j.allen(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 5:20 PM, Jay Balunas <tech4j(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > >> Hi Guys, >> >> Honestly, either way this goes, I think that any changes on this should >> wait until Pete returns from vacation. This is a major change for the >> project and one that the project lead needs to be part of. I'm not aware of >> all the conversations related to this, so won't comment on the choices. >> >> Pete will be back the first week in April, and since I don't think there >> is any critical need to make the move I have a suggestion. >> > > April 6th I believe. > > >> >> If you need new wiki pages, create them in the sfwk.org wiki. If you >> want keep them separate from other wiki pages ( tags, naming, links, >> whatever ) and self contained. This way no one will be stopped from doing >> what they need to do, and either way the choice goes you will already have a >> head start. >> >> The Seam 3 information does need updating, as I can attest with reviewing >> the current builds and pages, but lets start with this approach, and then >> work this out as a team when Pete returns. >> >> My $.05, >> > > As always, thanks for the tremendously practical insight. I'd say it's > worth much more than $.05. We'll proceed with your suggestion as we await > Pete's return. That way, we allow the project lead to be part of this > decision, as it should be. > > -Dan > > -- > Dan Allen > Senior Software Engineer, Red Hat | Author of Seam in Action > Registered Linux User #231597 > > http://mojavelinux.com > http://mojavelinux.com/seaminaction > http://www.google.com/profiles/dan.j.allen > > _______________________________________________ > seam-dev mailing list > seam-dev(a)lists.jboss.org > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/seam-dev > > _______________________________________________ seam-dev mailing list seam-dev(a)lists.jboss.org https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/seam-dev

On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 6:15 PM, Arbi Sookazian <asookazian(a)gmail.com&gt;wrote: > The project lead apparently has no say b/c this open issue has apparently > already been decided and finalized single-handedly by GKing, no? The > community (the people who use the forums the most) has no say. One out of > hundreds decides. A dictatorship in the open-source community. > > Your support and point has been noted and passed on. I appreciate your input and support for the community. Let's allow this to run it's course now. If there are others in support of this change, a simple "I support this" will do. As Nicklas mentions, we don't want the thread to veer too off topic into complaints about seamframework.org. Feel free to create a document on the wiki to list them out ;) -Dan -- Dan Allen Senior Software Engineer, Red Hat | Author of Seam in Action Registered Linux User #231597 http://mojavelinux.com http://mojavelinux.com/seaminaction http://www.google.com/profiles/dan.j.allen _______________________________________________ seam-dev mailing list seam-dev(a)lists.jboss.org https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/seam-dev

The project lead apparently has no say b/c this open issue has apparently already been decided and finalized single-handedly by GKing, no?  The community (the people who use the forums the most) has no say.  One out of hundreds decides.  A dictatorship in the open-source community.

I do recall about a year or so ago that the original hibernate.org was unavailable for a week...

And the performance of sfwk.org in North America at least is typically abysmal...

No edits. No edits. No edits.

Gavin King-3 wrote: > > The outage of hibernate.org of course had nothing to do with the wiki > software used. Oh, and of course, hibernate.org did not even run on > seam wiki. So this is totally irrelevant to the discussion. > > Completely untrue. The wiki software used allowed a security breach which > *directly* led to the outages.

On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 6:15 PM, Arbi Sookazian <asookazian(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > The project lead apparently has no say b/c this open issue has apparently > already been decided and finalized single-handedly by GKing, no? The > community (the people who use the forums the most) has no say. One out of > hundreds decides. A dictatorship in the open-source community. This is not a democracy. Some people contribute more to the project than others, and those people therefore have a bigger say.

> And the performance of sfwk.org in North America > at least is typically abysmal... Which, as you've already been told, is more a matter of the location of the server. European users are not reporting problems.

So what's the status on this initiative? They changed all our passwords in JBoss Community due to the security breach and I have no clue how to reset the password on my own via the website functionality... Maybe I need to read the damn spec! :) http://www.jboss.org/help/lostpassword.html No reference to keyword "change" in above page... On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 4:37 AM, Pete Muir <pmuir(a)redhat.com <mailto:pmuir@redhat.com>> wrote: On 18 Mar 2010, at 23:45, Gavin King wrote:

So what's the status on this initiative? They changed all our passwords in JBoss Community due to the security breach and I have no clue how to reset the password on my own via the website functionality... Maybe I need to read the damn spec! :) http://www.jboss.org/help/lostpassword.html No reference to keyword "change" in above page... On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 4:37 AM, Pete Muir <pmuir(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote: On 18 Mar 2010, at 23:45, Gavin King wrote: > On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 6:15 PM, Arbi Sookazian <asookazian(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >> The project lead apparently has no say b/c this open issue has apparently >> already been decided and finalized single-handedly by GKing, no? The >> community (the people who use the forums the most) has no say. One out of >> hundreds decides. A dictatorship in the open-source community. > > This is not a democracy. Some people contribute more to the project > than others, and those people therefore have a bigger say. Yes, I have a say ;-). I was simply on vacation when Dan raised this issue here - for the background, we have been discussing this issue for a while now. There are good arguments on both sides. Personally, I come down somewhat on the side of migration (if a few blocking issues with JBoss.org can be resolved which I will outline elsewhere). Needless to say I have an enormous amount of respect for Gavin and his opinion and I am not prepared to support migrating the Seam website to jboss.org software without Gavin's full support on the matter. This has always been my position, and will continue to be. >> And the performance of sfwk.org in North America >> at least is typically abysmal... > > Which, as you've already been told, is more a matter of the location > of the server. European users are not reporting problems. Exactly. sfwk.org is *very* responsive here in the UK. Dan, Lincoln and Rodney have been investigating moving the server to somewhere with better peering. We will conduct some speed trials of any new location (with the communities help) to ensure good latency in all parts of the world.

I can personally submit my frustration as a new module lead - seamframework.org<http://seamframework.org> is not enough to meet my needs in: Engaging the community - promoting the project.

Staying aware of what the community is doing, asking for, struggling with, talking about. I'm cut out completely on seamframework.org<http://seamframework.org>. I can't get email notifications,

I can't paste links to replies, other threads on the site itself, or URLs with query=parameters (without using the plain text mode which is just terrible.)

Providing logically organized, clear, and navigable information. How can I establish the expectations and guidelines for development on these modules when I can't put that on a site that isn't confused with Seam 2 already?

These are just a few of the issues I've encountered - aside from the fact that the site is frequently down and is always semi-responsive (5-15s per request). It's struggling to keep up with our needs.

Ok, do that and then fix 150 or so JIRA issues to improve the existing sfwk.org for obvious reasons (some of which I've mentioned in this thread). Is it worth the time to do all that? Is it worth the time/effort to migrate to jboss.org? I don't really know how long that takes but I'm hoping it is. Currently on sfwk.org, there is lack of ability to edit posts, search functionality is poor (better to use google), attachments not supported, helpful/correct answer icons not supported, need I go on? Yes, it's a Seam app but there are so many Seam example apps in the distro. Oh and don't forget that sfwk.org would need to be upgraded to Seam3 and JBoss 6, no? Undead horse. On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 3:12 PM, Stuart Douglas < stuart(a)baileyroberts.com.au&gt; wrote: > Perhaps a good place to start would be a seam 3 forum and and a 'Seam 3' > entry on the side menu (like what was done for weld)? > > Stuart > > ________________________________________ > From: seam-dev-bounces(a)lists.jboss.org [seam-dev-bounces(a)lists.jboss.org] > On Behalf Of Jay Balunas [tech4j(a)gmail.com] > Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 8:20 AM > To: Gavin King > Cc: Seam Mailing List > Subject: Re: [seam-dev] Seam 3 space on JBoss Community > > Hi Guys, > > Honestly, either way this goes, I think that any changes on this should > wait until Pete returns from vacation. This is a major change for the > project and one that the project lead needs to be part of. I'm not aware of > all the conversations related to this, so won't comment on the choices. > > Pete will be back the first week in April, and since I don't think there > is any critical need to make the move I have a suggestion. > > If you need new wiki pages, create them in the sfwk.org<http://sfwk.org> > wiki. If you want keep them separate from other wiki pages ( tags, naming, > links, whatever ) and self contained. This way no one will be stopped from > doing what they need to do, and either way the choice goes you will already > have a head start. > > The Seam 3 information does need updating, as I can attest with reviewing > the current builds and pages, but lets start with this approach, and then > work this out as a team when Pete returns. > > My $.05, > Jay > > On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 4:48 PM, Gavin King <gavin.king(a)gmail.com&lt;mailto: > gavin.king(a)gmail.com&gt;&gt; wrote: > Folks, I've listened to all the arguments. I really have. I'm not > going to re-argue the case here, since we would just be beating a dead > horse. And I've taken all these arguments into account in making the > decision that no, we are not going to use the jboss.org<http://jboss.org> > infrastructure > instead of the purpose-built software that we created for our own > special requirements. > > On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 4:33 PM, Lincoln Baxter, III > <lincolnbaxter@gmail.com<mailto:lincolnbaxter@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > I can personally submit my frustration as a new module lead - > > seamframework.org<http://seamframework.org> is not enough to meet my > needs in: > > > > Engaging the community - promoting the project. > > How does the wiki software affect your ability to "engage the > community"? Actually, hibernate.org<http://hibernate.org> and > seamframework.org<http://seamframework.org> have a much, > much better and deeper track record of community building and > community engagement than jboss.org<http://jboss.org>. > > > Staying aware of what the community is doing, asking for, struggling > with, > > talking about. I'm cut out completely on seamframework.org< > http://seamframework.org>;. I can't get > > email notifications, > > Geez. Use the Atom feed like I do. It's much more convenient. Or spend > 5 mins writing a little bit of code to extend the existing email > notification stuff in seam wiki. This is going to be way less work > than migrating content to a new infrastructure. > > > I can't paste links to replies, other threads on the > > site itself, or URLs with query=parameters (without using the plain > text > > mode which is just terrible.) > > Huh?! I post links to comments and threads all the time. It's totally > trivial. > > > Providing logically organized, clear, and navigable information. How can > I > > establish the expectations and guidelines for development on these > modules > > when I can't put that on a site that isn't confused with Seam 2 already? > > This is not an issue of what software platform we run on. We can > install as many instances of Seam Wiki as we like. And I don't see why > we can't put legacy Seam2-related content in a different area of the > same site. That's just silly. > > > These are just a few of the issues I've encountered - aside from the > fact > > that the site is frequently down and is always semi-responsive (5-15s > per > > request). It's struggling to keep up with our needs. > > Funny, I have not seen it down any time in the past 2 years. > Responsiveness is perfectly fine for me, and can easily be improved by > moving it to a new box in the USA. > > _______________________________________________ > seam-dev mailing list > seam-dev@lists.jboss.org<mailto:seam-dev@lists.jboss.org> > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/seam-dev > > > > -- > blog: http://in.relation.to/Bloggers/Jay > > _______________________________________________ > seam-dev mailing list > seam-dev(a)lists.jboss.org > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/seam-dev > _______________________________________________ seam-dev mailing list seam-dev(a)lists.jboss.org https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/seam-dev

On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 7:25 PM, Tiago Reis <tiago.reis(a)cardmobili.com&gt; wrote: > Hi, > As a SEAM user I can tell that I really don't like the current website. > Its hard to navigate, hard to find information, hard to keep track of my > threads in the forum, timeout time is too short, and some other things. And how is any of this fixed by changing the Wiki software? > If moving allows for a better experience, I'm all for it. But that's the point. It doesn't.

> But if we can > improve the current web site in order to fix most of the issues that the > community complains I'm also good with that. And of course, we obviously can.

-- Gavin King gavin.king(a)gmail.com http://in.relation.to/Bloggers/Gavin http://hibernate.org http://seamframework.org

Hi, As a SEAM user I can tell that I really don't like the current website. Its hard to navigate, hard to find information, hard to keep track of my threads in the forum, timeout time is too short, and some other things. If moving allows for a better experience, I'm all for it. But if we can improve the current web site in order to fix most of the issues that the community complains I'm also good with that. If we keep on the current site, why not try to promote more actively that the community helps improving it? Put a link on the first page, pointing to the most urgent issues on the site. I would love to help, but to be honest I don't know where to start. I bet that there are more people in my position.

Dan I understand your perspective, and I agree that improving the

current website is probably not your biggest concern.

But something needs to be done, and I believe that if we can make the

community improve the website, QA and deploy shouldn't be a very big

overload. There would be no need to make a lot of new versions, just

release few, but good versions ;)

This could be a good way to promote community involvement in SEAM, at

least it would give a lot of people a little of experience on working

in a open source project and perhaps it would lower the entry barrier

to help with SEAM / WELD. I wonder on many using SEAM are comfortable

with open source development?

Either way, moving or not moving what I really want is a better

experience using the website, I really don't care much which one will

we use :-)

And yes, I'm really really interested in helping out with Seam ;)

On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 4:26 AM, Dan Allen dan.j.allen(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 7:25 PM, Tiago Reis tiago.reis(a)cardmobili.com&gt;

> wrote:

>>

>> Hi,

>> As a SEAM user I can tell that I really don't like the current website.

>> Its hard to navigate, hard to find information, hard to keep track of my

>> threads in the forum, timeout time is too short, and some other things.

>> If moving allows for a better experience, I'm all for it. But if we can

>> improve the current web site in order to fix most of the issues that the

>> community complains I'm also good with that.

>> If we keep on the current site, why not try to promote more actively that

>> the community helps improving it? Put a link on the first page, pointing to

>> the most urgent issues on the site. I would love to help, but to be honest I

>> don't know where to start. I bet that there are more people in my position.

>

> Tiago, I see what your saying that getting the community involved with

> improving the website would be in the spirit of open source development. And

> if we were building collaborative software, that might be a good way

> to continuously enhance it. But that's the trouble. We are building an

> integration framework, so working on the website is not really the best use

> of the resources we have. Plus, you have to think about the fact that if we

> change the software, we need to involve QA, both to ensure it doesn't break

> and to ensure the performance is acceptable. Then there is someone that

> needs to upgrade it smoothly. So it's a fair amount of work.

> What would be better is to have contributors fix bugs or add enhancements to

> Seam itself. For sure, we want to give you the steps to get started, but in

> working on Seam, not the website. As for the wiki as an example Seam

> application, I think we could do a better job with more focused examples

> that demonstrate specific features or that apply to different business

> domains, rather than trying to put all the features into this one huge

> example (the wiki).

> I'll also add that we can request improvements in the software that runs

> JBoss Community. It's powered by Jive SBS (social business software), and

> they are continuously adding or refining features. So what is there today

> isn't all there ever will be. And even that software has an extension API,

> so you could contribute enhancements, though I'm not sure of the specifics

> at this point. I'd have to ask Mark. But hopefully you will be interested in

> helping out with Seam instead ;)

> -Dan

> --

> Dan Allen

> Senior Software Engineer, Red Hat | Author of Seam in Action

> Registered Linux User #231597

>

> http://mojavelinux.com

> http://mojavelinux.com/seaminaction

> http://www.google.com/profiles/dan.j.allen

>

--

Tiago Reis

Cardmobili

UPTEC - Parque de Ciência e Tecnologia da Universidade do Porto

Rua do Actor Ferreira da Silva, 100 - Pavilhão A - Sala 30

4200-298 PORTO

Phone: +351 220 301 598/58

Mobile: +351 936 882847

www.cardmobili.com

tiago.reis(a)cardmobili.com

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Perhaps a good place to start would be a seam 3 forum and and a 'Seam 3' entry on the side menu (like what was done for weld)? Stuart ________________________________________ From: seam-dev-bounces(a)lists.jboss.org [seam-dev-bounces(a)lists.jboss.org] On Behalf Of Jay Balunas [tech4j(a)gmail.com] Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 8:20 AM To: Gavin King Cc: Seam Mailing List Subject: Re: [seam-dev] Seam 3 space on JBoss Community Hi Guys, Honestly, either way this goes, I think that any changes on this should wait until Pete returns from vacation. This is a major change for the project and one that the project lead needs to be part of. I'm not aware of all the conversations related to this, so won't comment on the choices. Pete will be back the first week in April, and since I don't think there is any critical need to make the move I have a suggestion. If you need new wiki pages, create them in the sfwk.org<http://sfwk.org> wiki. If you want keep them separate from other wiki pages ( tags, naming, links, whatever ) and self contained. This way no one will be stopped from doing what they need to do, and either way the choice goes you will already have a head start. The Seam 3 information does need updating, as I can attest with reviewing the current builds and pages, but lets start with this approach, and then work this out as a team when Pete returns. My $.05, Jay On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 4:48 PM, Gavin King <gavin.king(a)gmail.com&lt;mailto: gavin.king(a)gmail.com&gt;&gt; wrote: Folks, I've listened to all the arguments. I really have. I'm not going to re-argue the case here, since we would just be beating a dead horse. And I've taken all these arguments into account in making the decision that no, we are not going to use the jboss.org<http://jboss.org> infrastructure instead of the purpose-built software that we created for our own special requirements. On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 4:33 PM, Lincoln Baxter, III <lincolnbaxter@gmail.com<mailto:lincolnbaxter@gmail.com>> wrote: > I can personally submit my frustration as a new module lead - > seamframework.org<http://seamframework.org> is not enough to meet my needs in: > > Engaging the community - promoting the project. How does the wiki software affect your ability to "engage the community"? Actually, hibernate.org<http://hibernate.org> and seamframework.org<http://seamframework.org> have a much, much better and deeper track record of community building and community engagement than jboss.org<http://jboss.org>. > Staying aware of what the community is doing, asking for, struggling with, > talking about. I'm cut out completely on seamframework.org< http://seamframework.org>;. I can't get > email notifications, Geez. Use the Atom feed like I do. It's much more convenient. Or spend 5 mins writing a little bit of code to extend the existing email notification stuff in seam wiki. This is going to be way less work than migrating content to a new infrastructure. > I can't paste links to replies, other threads on the > site itself, or URLs with query=parameters (without using the plain text > mode which is just terrible.) Huh?! I post links to comments and threads all the time. It's totally trivial. > Providing logically organized, clear, and navigable information. How can I > establish the expectations and guidelines for development on these modules > when I can't put that on a site that isn't confused with Seam 2 already? This is not an issue of what software platform we run on. We can install as many instances of Seam Wiki as we like. And I don't see why we can't put legacy Seam2-related content in a different area of the same site. That's just silly. > These are just a few of the issues I've encountered - aside from the fact > that the site is frequently down and is always semi-responsive (5-15s per > request). It's struggling to keep up with our needs. Funny, I have not seen it down any time in the past 2 years. Responsiveness is perfectly fine for me, and can easily be improved by moving it to a new box in the USA. _______________________________________________ seam-dev mailing list seam-dev@lists.jboss.org<mailto:seam-dev@lists.jboss.org> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/seam-dev -- blog: http://in.relation.to/Bloggers/Jay _______________________________________________ seam-dev mailing list seam-dev(a)lists.jboss.org https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/seam-dev

I just want to point out that I am not happy with Hibernate.org.  However I am not sure yet whether I am less happy with it now than I was with the old site.  Gavin you are seriously the only person I have come across that actually liked that old site.  The search sucked.  Admin sucked.  It was a total pain to author content.  The security "model" was atrocious.  Contact me off list if you need the rest of this list. Was it great that we controlled it?  Well that's a two-sided question.  Of course it was awesome that we got free reign over developing and designing it.  But the downside is/was maintaining it both in terms of administering the machine and keeping the site software patched etc.  Its this second aspect where the old site was largely an epic fail.  Its the single reason we continued to use completely outdated software that eventually led to the security incidents that started all the outages with hibernate.org.  The php wiki was absolute poopoo no matter what your rose-colored glasses want to have you remember. I am not going to speak about y'alls current site.  I was not involved in it, nor do I ever go there.  So its not appropriate for me to speak about it. Someone pointed out some supposed issues with the new hibernate site.  Well the quick links are working and have always been working afaik.  The tools page is how max wanted it; all the "missing nav links" are actually part of the page itself.  Yes there is not a good way to link back to the magnolia pages from the sbs pages, because the jboss.org infrastructure does not recgnize an association between the 2. I personally welcome any *constructive* criticism of the hibernate.org setup.  In fact we are discussing changes as I write this. -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Seam-3-space-on-JBoss-Community-tp27950629p27989245... Sent from the seam-dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com. _______________________________________________ seam-dev mailing list seam-dev(a)lists.jboss.org https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/seam-dev

Look, it's clear that we needed to migrate away from the old hibernate.org infrastructure, which was on old PHP codebase abandoned several years ago, and featured a lot of the same problems which annoy me about the new site. But I think that it was a mistake to use the jboss.org infrastructure instead of Seam Wiki, and I think that at the very least the switch was flipped on the new site well before it was ready and had been through a proper quality review. Here's a list of issues with the new site:

== * Navigation is much more complex. I count five, even six different menus on each page, two of which contain pulldowns on some (but not all) menu items. These menus interact in strange and unintuitive ways. For example, it's totally non-obvious that the "Documentation" link takes you somewhere different, depending upon which subproject you happen to have selected. It's incredibly non-obvious how you get back to the main "Hibernate" frontpage once you have clicked on a subproject. At various places in the site, for example, as soon as you navigate to the wiki, you simply get lost in jboss.org, and the menu bar no longer takes you back to hibernate.org! This is unprofessional, and I'm amazed, after all the assurances that porting to the jboss.org infrastructure would not affect the ability for the site to maintain its own identity, that we have these kinds of basic problems. These problems seem to be the direct result of re-using what already existed in jboss.org. At the time the site went live, there were a bunch of broken links, though these now seem to be fixed. Also, users are complaining that bookmarked links to content on the old site are now broken. These may be just teething problems.

* The site is uglier than the old site, and has lost its identity. This is an aesthetic judgement, obviously, and perhaps not everyone will agree. But after everyone has been assuring me for ages that *of course* migrating to the jboss.org infrastructure would not affect our ability to maintain our existing look/feel and identity, I'm extremely surprised to find that the look and feel of the old hibernate page has been borgified and now has a much blander and less distinctive jboss.org-ified look.

In particular, the wiki pages are just plain ugly, and don't look like plain web pages. Just try compare a page from seamframework.org to a page from the hibernate.org wiki side by side. One is beautiful, the other is vomit.

* Login is screwed up. I'm annoyed that my old hibernate.org credentials don't work. I'm even more annoyed that logging in takes two clicks, and sends me to some jboss.org page from which I have no chance to navigate back to the hibernate.org page I was looking at (without using the back button). This is just unprofessional. Again, this seems to be the result of using the jboss.org infrastructure.

* Inconsistent look and feel across the website, wiki and forums. Unlike in Seam Wiki, the wiki and forum each have their own special look and feel. The main pages of the site don't appear to be wiki pages at all, which means that I have 3 different ways of authoring and managing content depending upon where I am in the site. This is just crappy, folks! I did not even find *any* way to edit the main website pages via my web browser.

* The search box takes me to Google. Perhaps I'm missing some "trick", but the search box does not seem to search the site at all. It seems to just take me straight to Google, and return me results from the whole internet.

== These are just the things I noticed in a cursory inspection of the site. Now, perhaps some of these problems are fixable while remaining on the jboss.org infrastructure. But seamframework.org does not have ANY of these problems. And hibernate.org would not have these problems if we would have used Seam Wiki, which was my recommendation at the time.

I think what you're missing in all this, Steve, is that my comments are not really directed at the decision to migrate hibernate.org. There were considerations affecting that decision that simply don't apply to seamframework.org. And, well, it's done now, so recriminations don't really serve much purpose.

Yes, I do think that the migration was badly executed (and I'm sorry you're offended by that), but I would not be pressing the point or even mentioning it here, were it not for the fact that there are several people who are arguing that we should do the same thing to seamframework.org. And they've been claiming, in the face of my skepticism, that this could certainly be done without losing the identity, look and feel, and general usability of the current site. Essentially, they've tried to tell me that there would be no downside to this migration. Which is a load of bull, frankly.

You have some valid points. Here's some clarification and further data/observations: 1) The search function here: http://community.jboss.org/ *does not* go to google.com. It *does* for hibernate.org. That's pretty lame and double lame that it's inconsistent, yes.

2) From the hibernate.org home page, I click Tools link, navigate to this page: http://hibernate.org/subprojects/tools.html. Now the Downloads, Community, Documentation menus/links don't work (perhaps works as designed for Tools as there is no add'l info/links or not done/bug??).

3) And yes, how do I navigate back to the home page from the tools page?? 4) Isn't it atypical to have the navigation panel on the right side in terms of templating/UI design?

5) what about https://forum.hibernate.org/? Will that migrate as well?

To be honest, community.jboss.org (or more specifically hibernate.org) has issues as does sfwk.org... On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 10:08 AM, Gavin King <gavin.king(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: Look, it's clear that we needed to migrate away from the old hibernate.org infrastructure, which was on old PHP codebase abandoned several years ago, and featured a lot of the same problems which annoy me about the new site. But I think that it was a mistake to use the jboss.org infrastructure instead of Seam Wiki, and I think that at the very least the switch was flipped on the new site well before it was ready and had been through a proper quality review. Here's a list of issues with the new site: == * Navigation is much more complex. I count five, even six different menus on each page, two of which contain pulldowns on some (but not all) menu items. These menus interact in strange and unintuitive ways. For example, it's totally non-obvious that the "Documentation" link takes you somewhere different, depending upon which subproject you happen to have selected. It's incredibly non-obvious how you get back to the main "Hibernate" frontpage once you have clicked on a subproject. At various places in the site, for example, as soon as you navigate to the wiki, you simply get lost in jboss.org, and the menu bar no longer takes you back to hibernate.org! This is unprofessional, and I'm amazed, after all the assurances that porting to the jboss.org infrastructure would not affect the ability for the site to maintain its own identity, that we have these kinds of basic problems. These problems seem to be the direct result of re-using what already existed in jboss.org. At the time the site went live, there were a bunch of broken links, though these now seem to be fixed. Also, users are complaining that bookmarked links to content on the old site are now broken. These may be just teething problems. * The site is uglier than the old site, and has lost its identity. This is an aesthetic judgement, obviously, and perhaps not everyone will agree. But after everyone has been assuring me for ages that *of course* migrating to the jboss.org infrastructure would not affect our ability to maintain our existing look/feel and identity, I'm extremely surprised to find that the look and feel of the old hibernate page has been borgified and now has a much blander and less distinctive jboss.org-ified look. In particular, the wiki pages are just plain ugly, and don't look like plain web pages. Just try compare a page from seamframework.org to a page from the hibernate.org wiki side by side. One is beautiful, the other is vomit. * Login is screwed up. I'm annoyed that my old hibernate.org credentials don't work. I'm even more annoyed that logging in takes two clicks, and sends me to some jboss.org page from which I have no chance to navigate back to the hibernate.org page I was looking at (without using the back button). This is just unprofessional. Again, this seems to be the result of using the jboss.org infrastructure. * Inconsistent look and feel across the website, wiki and forums. Unlike in Seam Wiki, the wiki and forum each have their own special look and feel. The main pages of the site don't appear to be wiki pages at all, which means that I have 3 different ways of authoring and managing content depending upon where I am in the site. This is just crappy, folks! I did not even find *any* way to edit the main website pages via my web browser. * The search box takes me to Google. Perhaps I'm missing some "trick", but the search box does not seem to search the site at all. It seems to just take me straight to Google, and return me results from the whole internet. == These are just the things I noticed in a cursory inspection of the site. Now, perhaps some of these problems are fixable while remaining on the jboss.org infrastructure. But seamframework.org does not have ANY of these problems. And hibernate.org would not have these problems if we would have used Seam Wiki, which was my recommendation at the time. On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 12:54 PM, Steve Ebersole <steve(a)hibernate.org&gt; wrote: > > I just want to point out that I am not happy with Hibernate.org. However I > am not sure yet whether I am less happy with it now than I was with the old > site. Gavin you are seriously the only person I have come across that > actually liked that old site. The search sucked. Admin sucked. It was a > total pain to author content. The security "model" was atrocious. Contact > me off list if you need the rest of this list. > > Was it great that we controlled it? Well that's a two-sided question. Of > course it was awesome that we got free reign over developing and designing > it. But the downside is/was maintaining it both in terms of administering > the machine and keeping the site software patched etc. Its this second > aspect where the old site was largely an epic fail. Its the single reason > we continued to use completely outdated software that eventually led to the > security incidents that started all the outages with hibernate.org. The php > wiki was absolute poopoo no matter what your rose-colored glasses want to > have you remember. > > I am not going to speak about y'alls current site. I was not involved in > it, nor do I ever go there. So its not appropriate for me to speak about > it. > > Someone pointed out some supposed issues with the new hibernate site. Well > the quick links are working and have always been working afaik. The tools > page is how max wanted it; all the "missing nav links" are actually part of > the page itself. Yes there is not a good way to link back to the magnolia > pages from the sbs pages, because the jboss.org infrastructure does not > recgnize an association between the 2. > > I personally welcome any *constructive* criticism of the hibernate.org > setup. In fact we are discussing changes as I write this. > > -- > View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Seam-3-space-on-JBoss-Community-tp27950629p27989245... > Sent from the seam-dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > _______________________________________________ > seam-dev mailing list > seam-dev(a)lists.jboss.org > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/seam-dev > -- Gavin King gavin.king(a)gmail.com http://in.relation.to/Bloggers/Gavin http://hibernate.org http://seamframework.org _______________________________________________ seam-dev mailing list seam-dev(a)lists.jboss.org https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/seam-dev _______________________________________________ seam-dev mailing list seam-dev(a)lists.jboss.org https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/seam-dev

On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 12:54 PM, Steve Ebersole&lt;steve(a)hibernate.org&gt; wrote: > > I just want to point out that I am not happy with Hibernate.org. However I > am not sure yet whether I am less happy with it now than I was with the old > site. Gavin you are seriously the only person I have come across that > actually liked that old site. I liked the *look* and *organization* of the old site. I was not much of a fan of the software platform it ran on, which was the reason we created Seam Wiki - to fix the problems we had experienced on cowiki.

> The search sucked. Admin sucked. It was a > total pain to author content. The security "model" was atrocious. Contact > me off list if you need the rest of this list. Well, I'm not at all convinced that these things are done much better on jboss.org. Seam Wiki, on the other hand, does them quite well. (Not perfect, but Good Enough.)

> Was it great that we controlled it? Well that's a two-sided question. Of > course it was awesome that we got free reign over developing and designing > it. But the downside is/was maintaining it both in terms of administering > the machine and keeping the site software patched etc. This is a political/organizational problem. i.e. it is an invented issue, not a Real issue.

If you need new wiki pages, create them in the sfwk.org wiki.  If you want keep them separate from other wiki pages ( tags, naming, links, whatever ) and self contained.  This way no one will be stopped from doing what they need to do, and either way the choice goes you will already have a head start. The Seam 3 information does need updating, as I can attest with reviewing the current builds and pages, but lets start with this approach, and then work this out as a team when Pete returns.

On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 4:04 PM, Gavin King <gavin.king(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > For those who want to see what a mess this would be, go check out the > new, broken, hibernate. hibernate.org -- Gavin King gavin.king(a)gmail.com http://in.relation.to/Bloggers/Gavin http://hibernate.org http://seamframework.org _______________________________________________ seam-dev mailing list seam-dev(a)lists.jboss.org https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/seam-dev

Definitely fucking not. We have discussed this and the decision is made. For those who want to see what a mess this would be, go check out the new, broken, hibernate.

Two forces are converging that cause us to rethink where we are hosting Seam 3 project documentation and discussions. I'll enunciate those forces and propose a solution that Lincoln and I have devised. Seam 3 is a very different beast than Seam 2. In some ways, I liken it to the relationship between Maven 2 and Maven 1. Both the Maven projects are build tools that are founded on the same principle, a software project management and comprehension tool that leverages an extensive ecosystem of plugins that tie into a unified build lifecycle. But Maven 2 is built on a different foundation than Maven 1, making them, in the end, very different solutions. Seam 3 relinquishes the context and dependency management and event notification responsibility to CDI, something that evolved out of the Seam 2 core. Seam 3 is also focused on extensibility punctuated by container portability. While you can expect similar convenient APIs and integrations in Seam 3, and a bridge module that allows you to use or emulate Seam 2 components, pragmatically speaking, it's new project that is going to be organized and governed very differently. Having established that Seam 3 differs from Seam 2 is several fundamental ways, mixing Seam 2 and Seam 3 information is massively confusing for developers. I'm referring specifically to the forums and the wiki. The driving force here is to establish a new "space" for Seam 3. Let's set that point on the table and move to the next force. Seam and Weld are projects brought to you by JBoss and its valued community. Yet, for some time now, these projects have isolated themselves from the JBoss community by being hosted outside (seamframework.org) of the JBoss community umbrella (http://community.jboss.org). The creator of the seamframework.org software is no longer with the team and the rest of us must assume the responsibility of keeping it up to date. The problem is, any work we spend on seamframework.org takes away from our ability to improve Seam and Weld, review patches, analyze issues or write documentation. It's an unnecessary drain. What makes it even more ridiculous is that we have a entire team, the JBoss Community infrastructure team, that works full time on providing a collaboration site to host projects, discussions and documentation. A resource we are not currently leveraging. Although it's a bigger discussion, we are reconsidering the use of the JBoss Community for technical reasons. Lately we've identified some pain points with seamframework.org that will immediately be solved by using Jive SBS (the Java-based software behind community.jboss.org). - Inability to monitor community discussion via "subscribe to this thread" - Inability to monitor comments on wiki pages - Inability to post deep, complex links - including links to our own threads on swfk.org - A rigid navigation structure that cannot easily be altered In short, we are concerned that we are lacking proper tools to effectively manage and grow the Seam and Weld projects and community. As simple as it sounds, there are still some considerations to take into account before deciding to return Seam and Weld home to the JBoss Community. That migration will require more planning. However, what Lincoln and I suggest we can do as a first step is to take advantage of the need to create a new space for Seam 3 and initiate that space in the JBoss Community. In addition to the technical benefits, this would give us: - a clean break for Seam 3, avoiding muddling with Seam 2 discussions and information - a proving ground to decide how we like the JBoss Community collaboration platform, considering a full migration of seamframework.org in the future - a chance for Seam community members across the board to establish their JBoss Community accounts - a better experience, in our mind We propose: - Creating a Seam 3 space at http://community.jboss.org with a user discussion forum and wiki - Creating a development subspace with a wiki (no discussion forum) In the short term, we'll still use the seam-dev mailinglist for development discussions (though we can consider enabling the discussion forums in the development subspace if the e-mail bridge can be activated). Would the majority of you be agreeable to this approach? It really will provide a lot more clarity for Seam 3 and will show that we are sincere about reuniting with the JBoss Community. Understand that this move will not take away from the focus on portability in any way. -Dan p.s. Take a look at http://hibernate.org -- Dan Allen Senior Software Engineer, Red Hat | Author of Seam in Action Registered Linux User #231597 http://mojavelinux.com http://mojavelinux.com/seaminaction http://www.google.com/profiles/dan.j.allen -- Dan Allen Senior Software Engineer, Red Hat | Author of Seam in Action Registered Linux User #231597 http://mojavelinux.com http://mojavelinux.com/seaminaction http://www.google.com/profiles/dan.j.allen